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Muhammad mentioned by name in the Song of Songs?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
    Luke 4:16-21 is probably an even better passage if you want to show that Jesus was literate.
    I didn't say Jesus was illiterate.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
      I didn't say Jesus was illiterate.
      I didn't say you did, and you don't need to repeat yourself 3 times to 3 different guys.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by siam View Post
        @Christian3

        "Wasn’t Muhammad taught by Allah? Muhammad was not illiterate as in not being able to read or write; he was unschooled."

        As mentioned before---there are 2 interpretations (opinions)...1) that he did not know how to read and write 2) that he did not know scriptures. Historically, the Prophet dictated everything to scribes---letters, treaties, the Quran....so the opinion that he did not know how to read and write could be correct....and I have no problem accepting it. My personal opinion is that the Quran is using the term in the 2nd context---that of being unknowledgeable about scripture....there have been accusations that he was "taught" the Bible by Jews and Christian scholars because the Quran makes references to Jewish rabbinical writings, the Torah, Talmuds, and others as well as Gospels, Apocrypha, and folk stories. This comprises a large body of literature.....
        For Muslims---Jesus Christ is considered Highly spiritual and knowledgeable....the Wisdom and scripture was taught/given to Jesus Christ (pbuh) by God---but Quran is given to all humanity---as the revelation of a Surah or part of a Surah occurred, the Prophet sat among scribes and dictated it....the people who heard it, memorized it there.(Muslims do not consider the Prophet to be the "author" of the Quran) Regardless of the process of the acquisition of knowledge,...all knowledge belongs to God and comes from God. Our intellectual capacity for the acquisition of knowledge is also as God wills---some have more intellectual capacity, others have less....those who have been given more, have a higher degree of responsibility to share/teach others.


        Revelation of Quran----

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6z5BhoCkfU
        I think we can safely say that Muhammad was not taught Scriptures and this would explain why so much folklore, etc. got into the Qur'an. He didn't know the difference.

        The problem is that in Muhammad's first encounter with a being in the cave asked Muhammad to read and he said "I cannot read." I am sure you believe your Allah is all-knowing, so why would he ask Muhammad to read something when he could not read?

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
          I think we can safely say that Muhammad was not taught Scriptures and this would explain why so much folklore, etc. got into the Qur'an. He didn't know the difference.

          The problem is that in Muhammad's first encounter with a being in the cave asked Muhammad to read and he said "I cannot read." I am sure you believe your Allah is all-knowing, so why would he ask Muhammad to read something when he could not read?
          I know next to nothing of Islam so I may not be the one to talk, but from the little context you give for this narrative, one could ask the same thing about YHWH in places like Gen. 3 and 4 ("Where are you?", "What have you done?", "Why is your face downcast?", "Where is your brother Abel?") among others. A Jewish or Christian person could go full apologist for these passages, and I understand that. Could a Muslim apologist perhaps do the same for the text you reference, maybe even using similar arguments?

          [I purposefully left out any similar questions in the NT regarding Jesus ("Who has touched me?") since IMO those are a different category.]

          Point is, IMO your point here doesn't seem too strong, unless there's context to the passage you reference that validates your question where it would fail in the OT examples.
          We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore on Christ's behalf: 'Be reconciled to God!!'
          - 2 Corinthians 5:20.
          In deviantArt: ll-bisto-ll.deviantart.com
          Christian art and more: Christians.deviantart.com

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
            I think we can safely say that Muhammad was not taught Scriptures and this would explain why so much folklore, etc. got into the Qur'an. He didn't know the difference.

            The problem is that in Muhammad's first encounter with a being in the cave asked Muhammad to read and he said "I cannot read." I am sure you believe your Allah is all-knowing, so why would he ask Muhammad to read something when he could not read?
            References in the Quran have a purpose and meaning. If one understands the overall context/paradigm, one can see how the symbolism fits together. A much-loved verse is the Throne verse (ayatul Kursi) which explains the nature of God....

            Allah - there is no deity except Him, the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of [all] existence. Neither drowsiness overtakes Him nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who is it that can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is [presently] before them and what will be after them, and they encompass not a thing of His knowledge except for what He wills. His Kursi (Throne) extends over the heavens and the earth, and their preservation tires Him not. And He is the Most High, the Most Great.

            Some may say that our universe/nature is controlled by "natural law"---the Quran explains that all phenomenon/cause and effects are controlled/allowed by God. Therefore there is no distinction between natural and supernatural, as behind all events, natural or otherwise, is the will of God. The existence of Jesus Christ(pbuh) is evidence of this....as well as subsequent "miracles"/God-willed actions such as defending his mother when he was a baby, clay birds turning into real ones...and other things. Thus, the very phenomenon of Jesus Christ validates his message. In the case of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) it is the phenomenon of the Quran itself that proves both the existence of God and the Prophet as the Messenger.

            Therefore from the Muslim perspective---it is important that the message is "pure"---without the biases and prejudices of the human agent through which it was revealed. Thus, even though some may claim that the Prophet "misunderstood"---the claim does not hold for a Muslim---because the Quran was dictated as it came---without editing or filtering.

            So why are the 2 Prophets handled differently by God?---because their purpose and circumstance were different. Prophet Jesus (pbuh) was sent to the Jews and it was important to establish he was not a false Prophet---but sent by God...and this was demonstrated without doubt so there was no excuse for the accusation of False Prophet. Prophet Muhammed is from the Arabs but the Quran is meant for all humanity. The character of the Prophet as al-Amin (trustworthy) was enough (for the Arabs)---as it was for previous Prophets. The message/Quran had to have a more rigorous standard of proof. One that would not only stand up at the time of revelation but for the future as well.

            ayatul kursi is an example of the depth of meaning contained in a single verse---
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Baqara_255

            this may be tedious for non-Arabic speakers---but it shows the precise use of words in the Arabic Quran
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=radRO-7ro0M

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by siam View Post
              References in the Quran have a purpose and meaning. If one understands the overall context/paradigm, one can see how the symbolism fits together. A much-loved verse is the Throne verse (ayatul Kursi) which explains the nature of God....

              Allah - there is no deity except Him, the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of [all] existence. Neither drowsiness overtakes Him nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who is it that can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is [presently] before them and what will be after them, and they encompass not a thing of His knowledge except for what He wills. His Kursi (Throne) extends over the heavens and the earth, and their preservation tires Him not. And He is the Most High, the Most Great.

              Some may say that our universe/nature is controlled by "natural law"---the Quran explains that all phenomenon/cause and effects are controlled/allowed by God. Therefore there is no distinction between natural and supernatural, as behind all events, natural or otherwise, is the will of God. The existence of Jesus Christ(pbuh) is evidence of this....as well as subsequent "miracles"/God-willed actions such as defending his mother when he was a baby, clay birds turning into real ones...and other things. Thus, the very phenomenon of Jesus Christ validates his message. In the case of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) it is the phenomenon of the Quran itself that proves both the existence of God and the Prophet as the Messenger.

              Therefore from the Muslim perspective---it is important that the message is "pure"---without the biases and prejudices of the human agent through which it was revealed. Thus, even though some may claim that the Prophet "misunderstood"---the claim does not hold for a Muslim---because the Quran was dictated as it came---without editing or filtering.

              So why are the 2 Prophets handled differently by God?---because their purpose and circumstance were different. Prophet Jesus (pbuh) was sent to the Jews and it was important to establish he was not a false Prophet---but sent by God...and this was demonstrated without doubt so there was no excuse for the accusation of False Prophet. Prophet Muhammed is from the Arabs but the Quran is meant for all humanity. The character of the Prophet as al-Amin (trustworthy) was enough (for the Arabs)---as it was for previous Prophets. The message/Quran had to have a more rigorous standard of proof. One that would not only stand up at the time of revelation but for the future as well.

              ayatul kursi is an example of the depth of meaning contained in a single verse---
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Baqara_255

              this may be tedious for non-Arabic speakers---but it shows the precise use of words in the Arabic Quran
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=radRO-7ro0M
              You are trying to side-step the issue that so much folklore made its way into the Qur'an.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by siam View Post
                References in the Quran have a purpose and meaning. If one understands the overall context/paradigm, one can see how the symbolism fits together. A much-loved verse is the Throne verse (ayatul Kursi) which explains the nature of God....

                Allah - there is no deity except Him, the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of [all] existence. Neither drowsiness overtakes Him nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who is it that can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is [presently] before them and what will be after them, and they encompass not a thing of His knowledge except for what He wills. His Kursi (Throne) extends over the heavens and the earth, and their preservation tires Him not. And He is the Most High, the Most Great.

                Some may say that our universe/nature is controlled by "natural law"---the Quran explains that all phenomenon/cause and effects are controlled/allowed by God. Therefore there is no distinction between natural and supernatural, as behind all events, natural or otherwise, is the will of God. The existence of Jesus Christ(pbuh) is evidence of this....as well as subsequent "miracles"/God-willed actions such as defending his mother when he was a baby, clay birds turning into real ones...and other things. Thus, the very phenomenon of Jesus Christ validates his message. In the case of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) it is the phenomenon of the Quran itself that proves both the existence of God and the Prophet as the Messenger.

                Therefore from the Muslim perspective---it is important that the message is "pure"---without the biases and prejudices of the human agent through which it was revealed. Thus, even though some may claim that the Prophet "misunderstood"---the claim does not hold for a Muslim---because the Quran was dictated as it came---without editing or filtering.

                So why are the 2 Prophets handled differently by God?---because their purpose and circumstance were different. Prophet Jesus (pbuh) was sent to the Jews and it was important to establish he was not a false Prophet---but sent by God...and this was demonstrated without doubt so there was no excuse for the accusation of False Prophet. Prophet Muhammed is from the Arabs but the Quran is meant for all humanity. The character of the Prophet as al-Amin (trustworthy) was enough (for the Arabs)---as it was for previous Prophets. The message/Quran had to have a more rigorous standard of proof. One that would not only stand up at the time of revelation but for the future as well.

                ayatul kursi is an example of the depth of meaning contained in a single verse---
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Baqara_255

                this may be tedious for non-Arabic speakers---but it shows the precise use of words in the Arabic Quran
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=radRO-7ro0M
                Muslims claim Jesus was only sent to the Jews, but Scriptures say otherwise.

                Jesus was sent to all mankind, Jews and Gentiles.


                Matthew 10:5-6 (NIV)
                5These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

                Matthew 15:24 (NIV)


                "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

                but they don’t seen to realize or do not want to admit that Jesus’ mission was to the Jews and the Gentiles alike. In order to understand the scope of Jesus’ mission, we must take all relevant Scriptures into account.

                The Jews needed to hear the Gospel first; they needed to be convinced that Jesus was the fulfillment of God’s promises to them. As one theologian said “If Jesus and his followers had simply begun an indiscriminate mission to the wider world, before God’s purpose had unfolded, they would have made God a liar.” God loves the whole world and intends to save the whole world, including the Gentiles, by fulfilling His promises to Israel and this was accomplished through His Messiah, Jesus.

                It would be wrong to suggest that the portrait of Jesus in the Gospels ignored the potential inclusion of the nations in Jesus’ mission. Notice Jesus preformed miracles that involved Gentiles.

                Jesus’ mission was universal:

                Matthew 8:11 (New International Version © 2010)
                11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.


                As Jesus said in Luke 24:

                45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

                And as Apostle Peter said:


                Acts 3:25-26 (New International Version)
                25And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, 'Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.'[a] 26When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways."

                Jesus concentrated primarily on the Jews during His time on earth, but after He rose from the dead, He said:

                Acts 1:8 (New International Version)
                8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

                Matthew 28: 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,

                Jesus anticipated that the Gentiles were to be included in His mission:


                Matthew 24:14 (New International Version)
                14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.


                John 10:16 (New International Version)
                16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.


                If Jesus had meant that His Gospel was only to be preached to the Jews, His disciples would never have gone to the Gentiles, but they did. After Jesus’ resurrection the Gospel was to be preached to all nations – Jew and Gentile alike.


                Luke 2:


                25Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 27Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required, 28Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying:


                29"Sovereign Lord, as you have promised,
                you now dismiss[d] your servant in peace.
                30For my eyes have seen your salvation,
                31which you have prepared in the sight of all people,
                32a light for revelation to the Gentiles
                and for glory to your people Israel."



                (Simeon quotes from Isaiah; Jesus is the servant of Isaiah., the Messiah)



                The Messiah appointed Paul as the Apostle to the Gentiles, but Paul was not the only one who spread the Gospel to the Gentiles. There were others.



                Barnabas accepted what Paul was preaching and brought him to the Apostles. (Acts 9:27-28)
                Acts 13:45-47 (New International Version)
                45When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and talked abusively against what Paul was saying.

                46Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47For this is what the Lord has commanded us:
                " 'I have made you[a] a light for the Gentiles,
                that you[b] may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'[c]"



                Barnabas and Paul quote Isaiah 9:6.



                Isaiah 49:6 (New International Version)
                6 he says:
                "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
                to restore the tribes of Jacob
                and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
                I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
                that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."

                Jesus’ mission was two-fold – first to the Jews and then to the Gentiles.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Stories of the Quran---The Quran uses all sorts of literary devices to make a point, to clarify, to explain, to persuade....it uses imagery, stories, juxtaposition, metaphors, similitude and many other literary devices....
                  so...the use of folk stories is not an issue....
                  ....the Quran itself explains this in Surah 2 verse 26

                  Yusuf Ali: Allah disdains not to use the similitude of things, lowest as well as highest. Those who believe know that it is truth from their Lord; but those who reject Faith say: "What means Allah by this similitude?" By it He causes many to stray, and many He leads into the right path; but He causes not to stray, except those who forsake (the path),-

                  Shakir: Surely Allah is not ashamed to set forth any parable-- (that of) a gnat or any thing above that; then as for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord, and as for those who disbelieve, they say: What is it that Allah means by this parable: He causes many to err by it and many He leads aright by it! but He does not cause to err by it (any) except the transgressors,

                  Did not Jesus (pbuh) also use stories to teach?

                  The message(scripture) can be "universal" that is---it can reach future generations because it survives time better than human beings. The life-span of human beings is limited to a particular generation...therefore a Prophet with a human lifespan can only be witnessed by his own generation. The message he leaves behind can carry the wisdom forward. The nature of "wisdom" is that it remains consistently "true" regardless of time. For example, no matter if it is the past, or the present, or the future---the Golden rule remains consistently true. From the Muslim perspective, the message of God (Shema/Tawheed) has been consistently true throughout time. All the Prophets from Prophet Adam to Prophet Mohammed have reminded humanity of this message. However, as the Quran notes---human beings are forgetful and the reminder that there is only One God gets distorted into other types of worship....
                  Quran calls Jesus (pbuh) as Masih (Messiah) which is understood to mean the last Prophet sent to the Jews. The Quran is the last message from God sent to humanity. Therefore, it corrects all that has been previously lost or distorted and reminds of the consistent truth throughout time---that of One God/Unity (Tawheed). (It also fulfills the promise God made to Prophet Adam and Prophet Abraham that their decedents will sent Guidance)

                  The Prophets are not with us but the Quran exists---it has existed for 1400 years and it exists today---anyone can purchase it and examine it. It will continue to exist in the future and those generations can also take advantage of its wisdom if they so choose......

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by siam View Post
                    Stories of the Quran---The Quran uses all sorts of literary devices to make a point, to clarify, to explain, to persuade....it uses imagery, stories, juxtaposition, metaphors, similitude and many other literary devices....
                    so...the use of folk stories is not an issue....
                    ....the Quran itself explains this in Surah 2 verse 26

                    Yusuf Ali: Allah disdains not to use the similitude of things, lowest as well as highest. Those who believe know that it is truth from their Lord; but those who reject Faith say: "What means Allah by this similitude?" By it He causes many to stray, and many He leads into the right path; but He causes not to stray, except those who forsake (the path),-

                    Shakir: Surely Allah is not ashamed to set forth any parable-- (that of) a gnat or any thing above that; then as for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord, and as for those who disbelieve, they say: What is it that Allah means by this parable: He causes many to err by it and many He leads aright by it! but He does not cause to err by it (any) except the transgressors,

                    Did not Jesus (pbuh) also use stories to teach?

                    The message(scripture) can be "universal" that is---it can reach future generations because it survives time better than human beings. The life-span of human beings is limited to a particular generation...therefore a Prophet with a human lifespan can only be witnessed by his own generation. The message he leaves behind can carry the wisdom forward. The nature of "wisdom" is that it remains consistently "true" regardless of time. For example, no matter if it is the past, or the present, or the future---the Golden rule remains consistently true. From the Muslim perspective, the message of God (Shema/Tawheed) has been consistently true throughout time. All the Prophets from Prophet Adam to Prophet Mohammed have reminded humanity of this message. However, as the Quran notes---human beings are forgetful and the reminder that there is only One God gets distorted into other types of worship....
                    Quran calls Jesus (pbuh) as Masih (Messiah) which is understood to mean the last Prophet sent to the Jews. The Quran is the last message from God sent to humanity. Therefore, it corrects all that has been previously lost or distorted and reminds of the consistent truth throughout time---that of One God/Unity (Tawheed). (It also fulfills the promise God made to Prophet Adam and Prophet Abraham that their decedents will sent Guidance)

                    The Prophets are not with us but the Quran exists---it has existed for 1400 years and it exists today---anyone can purchase it and examine it. It will continue to exist in the future and those generations can also take advantage of its wisdom if they so choose......
                    I am not speaking of similitudes or parables, such as:

                    “The parable of those who take protectors other than Allah is that of the spider, who builds (to itself) a house; but truly the flimsiest of houses is the spider’s house;- if they but knew. ” [29:41]

                    I am speaking of the use of borrowing other religious material, such as: (from answering-islam article)

                    1. Surah 5:32 borrowed from the Mishnah Sanhedrin.
                    2.
                    There is another passage in the Quran that has its origins in the Mishnah. This passage is Sura 21:51-71. The Mishnah passage is found in Rabbah Genesis.

                    Here is the Quranic story:

                    We formerly bestowed guidance on Abraham, for We knew him well. He said to his father and to his people: "What are these images to which you are so devoted?" They replied: "They are the gods our fathers worshipped." He said: "Then you are your fathers are in the grossest error." "Is this the truth that you are preaching," they asked, "or is this but a jest?" "Indeed," he answered, "Your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth. It was He that made them: to this I bear witness. By the Lord, I will overthrow your idols as soon as you have turned your backs." He broke them all in pieces, except their supreme god, so that they might return to him. "Who has done this to our deities?" asked some. "He must surely be a wicked man." Others replied: "We have heard a youth called Abraham speak of them." They said: "then bring him here in sight of all the people, that they may act as witnesses." "Abraham," they said, "was it you who did this to our deities?" "No," he replied. "It was their chief who smote them. Ask them, if they can speak." Thereupon they turned their thoughts upon themselves and said to each other: "Surely you are the ones who have done wrong." [Confounded as they were, they said to Abraham:] "You know they cannot speak." He answered: "Would you then worship that, instead of God, which can neither help nor harm you? Shame on you and on your idols! Have you no sense?" They cried: "Burn him and avenge your gods, if you must punish him!" "Fire," We said, "be cool to Abraham and keep him safe."



                    Here is the quote from the Mishnah Rabbah, Genesis (Noach) (CH 38:11-13) Vol. 1, pp. 310 -311, Soncino Edition, Soncino Press London, Editors Dr H Freedman and Maurice Simon. [28]

                    13. AND HARAN DIED IN THE PRESENCE OF HIS FATHER TERAH (XI,28). R Hiyya said: Terah was a manufacturer of idols. He once went away somewhere and left Abraham to sell them in his place. A man came and wished to buy one. 'How old are you?' Abraham asked him 'Fifty years' was the reply 'Woe to such a man!' he exclaimed. 'You are fifty years old and would worship a day old object!' At this he became ashamed and departed.

                    On another occasion a woman came with a plateful of flour and requested him, 'Take this and offer it to them.' So he took a stick and broke them and put the stick in the hand of the largest. When his father returned he demanded, 'What have you done to them?' 'I cannot concealed it from you' he rejoined. "A woman came with a plateful of fine meal and requested me to offer it to them. One claimed 'I must eat first' while another claimed 'I must eat first'. Thereupon the largest arose, took the stick, and broke them." 'Why do you make sport of me' he cried out; 'have they any knowledge!' 'Should not your ears listen to what your mouth is saying' he retorted. Thereupon he seized him and delivered him to Nimrod.

                    'Let us worship fire' he (Nimrod) proposed. 'Let us rather worship water', which extinguishes the fire' replied he. 'Then let us worship water!' ' Let us rather worship the clouds which bear the water.' 'The let us worship the clouds!' 'Let us rather worship the winds which disperse the clouds' 'Let us worship the wind!' 'Let us worship human beings, who withstand the wind' 'You are just bandying words' he exclaimed; 'We will worship naught but fire. Behold, I will cast you into it, and let the God whom you adore come and save you from it.

                    Now Haran was standing there undecided. If Abram is victorious, (he thought), I will say that I am of Abram's belief, while if Nimrod is victorious I will say that I am on Nimrod's side. When Abram descended into the fiery furnace and was saved, he (Nimrod) asked him, 'of whose belief are you?' 'Of Abram's' he replied. Thereupon he seized and cast him into the fire; his inwards were scorched and he died in his father's presence. Hence it is written, AND HARAN DIED IN THE PRESENCE OF ('AL PENE) HIS FATHER TERAH.


                    COMMENT

                    It is clear that Muhammad borrowed from Jewish legend. He added a few details, just as all story-tellers do, to embellish the story according to his needs or fancies. Also notice that although the Quran does not name Nimrod as the king, as the Mishnah does, the Islamic historian Tabari refers to this incident and names him. On page 59 of volume 4,: "god moved Nebuchadnezzarb. Nabuzeradan b. Sennacherib b. Darius b. Nimrod (the one who disputed with Abraham concerning his Lord)...[29]

                    From the Quran - Sura 19 - "Mary", verses 28 - 33

                    Carrying the child, she came to her people, who said to her: 'Mary, this is indeed a strange thing! Sister of Aaron, your father was never a whore-monger, nor was your mother a harlot.'
                    She made a sign to them, pointing to the child. But they replied: 'How can we speak with a babe in the cradle?'
                    Whereupon he spoke and said: 'I am the servant of God. He has given me the Book and ordained me a prophet. His blessing is upon me wherever I go, and He has exhorted me to be steadfast in prayer and to give alms as long as I shall live. He has exhorted me to honor my mother and has purged me of vanity and wickedness. Blessed was I on the day I was born, and blessed I shall be on the day of my death and on the day I shall be raised to life.' (Dawood's translation).


                    The source of this story is "The Arabic Infancy Gospel". There exists a whole collection of stories and fables classified as "Infancy Gospels". Later ones were based upon earlier ones. The Arabic Infancy Gospel is based upon earlier Infancy Gospels were created from the second century onward. Here is the quote from The Arabic Infancy Gospel:

                    "We find what follows in the book of Joseph the high priest, who lived in the time of Christ. Some say that he is Caiaphas. He has said that Jesus spoke, and, indeed, when He was lying in His cradle said to Mary His mother: I am Jesus, the Son of God, the Logos, whom thou hast brought forth, as the Angel Gabriel announced to thee; and my Father has sent me for the salvation of the world."



                    One scholar - J. K. Elliot writes regarding the dating of the Arabic Infancy Gospel, in "The Apocryphal New Testament", page 100:

                    "This is another collection of material that has made use of the Protevangelium of James (PJ) and Infancy Thomas. Chapters 1 - 10 are based up PJ, and 36-55 shows many similarities with Thomas... In between (i.e. chapters 11-35) the author has drawn on a large collection of fantasies, the origin of which is likely to be Egyptian.

                    "...the Arabic is likely to go back to a Syrian archetype, which could be of he fifth - sixth century." [30]



                    M. R. James in "The Apocryphal New Testament", pub. by Oxford, writes on page 38 regarding "The Protevangelium of James",

                    "Origen mentions the Book of James as stating that the brethren of the Lord" were sons of Joseph by a former wife. This is the first mention of it and shows us that the book is as old as the second century." [31]



                    Regarding the composition date of the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, Helmut Koester writes in "Ancient Christian Gospels" on page 311:

                    "That this writing existed in some form in the 2nd century is not certain but also not improbable. [32]



                    And Elliot writes regarding the "Infancy Gospel of Thomas",

                    "Wright's Syriac text is based on a fifth century manuscript that is close to Greek A.



                    Hennecke writes in "New Testament Apocrypha", pub. by Lutterworth, page 369:

                    "The basis of all the vast later literature constituting the apocryphal infancy gospels is the so called Protevangelium of James, probably of the 2nd century, particularly for the birth, childhood and motherhood of Mary, and the Gospel of Thomas, not much later in its original form, for the miracles of the child Jesus." [33]




                    Fables through time have changed, and Muhammad repeated one of the variations of Jesus speaking in the cradle. Thus the fable of Jesus speaking in the cradle predates Islam.


                    The text of the Arabic Infancy Gospel can be found at

                    http://wesley.nnc.edu.noncanon/gospels/infarab.htm



                    ================================================== =========

                    B From Sura 19 - Mary: verses 22 - 26

                    Thereupon she conceived him, and retired to a far-off place. And when she felt the throes of childbirth she lay down by the trunk of a palm-tree, crying: 'Oh, would that I had died and passed into oblivion!'
                    But a voice from below cried out to her: 'Do not despair. Your Lord has provided a brook that runs at your feet, and if you shake the trunk of this palm-tree it will drop fresh ripe dates in your lap. Therefore eat and drink and rejoice; and should you meet any mortal say to him: "I have vowed a fast to the Merciful and will not speak with any man today."'


                    From Sura 23 - The Believers, verse 50:

                    We made the son of Mary and his mother a sign to mankind, and gave them a shelter on a peaceful hillside watered by a fresh spring.


                    These two verses relate to the birth of Jesus. The parallel is found in "The Gospel of Pseudo Matthew", as follows:

                    Now on the third day of their journey, as they went on, it happened that blessed Mary was wearied by the too great heat of the sun in the desert, and seeing a palm tree, she said to Joseph: "I should like to rest a little in the shade of this tree." And Joseph led her quickly to the palm and let her dismount from her animal . And when blessed Mary had sat down she looked up at the top of the palm tree and saw that it was full of fruits, and said to Joseph: "I wish someone could fetch some of these fruits of the palm tree." And Joseph said to her: "I wonder that you say this; for you see how high this palm tree is, and (I wonder ) that you even think about eating of the fruits of the palm. I think rather of the lack of water, which already fails us n the skins, and we have nothing with which we can re-fresh ourselves and the animals."
                    Then the child Jesus, who was sitting with a happy countenance in his mother's lap, said to the palm: "Bend down your branches, O Tree and refresh my mother with your fruit." And immediately at this command the palm bent its head down to the feet of blessed Mary, and they gathered from it fruits with which they all refreshed themselves.....Then Jesus said to it: "Raise yourself, O palm .....and let the waters flow so that we may quench our thirst from it." And immediately it raised itself, and there began to gush out by its root a fountain of water very clear, fresh and completely bright. [34]


                    The quote above is from "New Testament Apocrypha", by E. Hennecke, edited by Schneemelcher, published by WJKP, page 463.



                    The Gospel of Pseudo Matthew was based upon earlier Apocryphyal Infancy Gospels, namely, the "Protoevangelium of James" and "The Infancy Gospel of Thomas". These two Infancy Gospels form the basis for many other "Infancy Gospels".



                    M. R. James in "The Apocryphal New Testament", pub. by Oxford, writes regarding the Pseudo Matthew, on page 70

                    "The two main sources are the Protevangelium (of James) and the (Infancy) Gospel of Thomas, but some few episodes are not found in either.



                    Jacques Hervieux writes in "The New Testament Apocrypha", published by Hawthorn Books, page 18:

                    "About the sixth century there appeared in Latin a certain book on the birth of the Blessed Mary and of the Savior's infancy. An introductory letter presented this new work as a "supplement" to the Gospel of St. Matthew, translated personally by St. Jerome the great fourth century exegete."[35]



                    Elliot writes in "The Apocryphal New Testament", page 86:

                    "In the Gelasian Decree, no. 8 refers to Evangelia nomine Jacobi mnoris, which Amann (p. 104) identifies with PJ, but de Strycker (La Forme la plus ancienne..., p. 43 n. 1) raises the possibility that this could b ePseudo-Matthew. If so, then Pseudo-Mathew must have been composed before the compilation of the Decree, and this would give it a date prior to the sixth century.




                    ================================================== ===========

                    C From the Quran - Sura 3 - "The Imrans:, verses 37 - 37

                    Remember the words of Imran's wife. 'Lord,' she said, 'I dedicate to Your service that which is in my womb. Accept if from me. You alone hear all and know all.'
                    And when she was delivered of the child, she said: 'Lord, I have given birth to a daughter' - God well knew of what she was delivered: the male is not like the female - 'and have called her Mary. Protect her and all her descendants from Satan, the Accursed One.'
                    Her Lord graciously accepted her. He made her grow a goodly child and entrusted her to the care of Zacharias.
                    Whenever Zacharias visited her in the Shrine he found that she had food with her. 'Mary,' he said, 'where is this food from?'
                    'It is from God,' she answered. 'God gives without stint to whom He will.'


                    Here is the story from "The Protevangelium of James".

                    And behold an angel of the Lord came to her and said: "Anna, Anna, the Lord has heard your prayer. You shall conceive and bear, and your offspring shall be spoken of in the whole world." And Anna said: "As the Lord my God lives, if I bear a child, whether male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God, and it shall serve him all the days of its life.".....
                    .....And her six months were fulfilled, as the angel had said: in the seventh month Anna brought forth. And she said to the midwife: "What have I brought froth?" and the midwife said: "A female." And Anna said: "My soul is magnified this day." And she laid it down. And when the days were fulfilled, Anna purified herself from her childbed and gave suck to the child, and called her name Mary.....
                    .....When she (Mary) was two years old, Joachim said to Anna: "Let us bring her up to the Temple of the Lord that we may fulfill the promise which we made, lest the Lord send some evil upon us and our gift become unacceptable." And Anna replied let us wait until the third year that the child may not long after her father and mother. And Joachim said: "Very well."
                    And when the child was three years old, Joachim said: "Let us ......in order that the child may not turn back and her heart be enticed away from the Temple of the Lord." And he did so until they went up to the Temple of the Lord. And the priest, (Zacharias) took her and kissed her and blessed her, saying: "The Lord has magnified your name among all generations; because of you the Lord at the end of the days will manifest his redemption to the children of Israel.
                    .....And Mary was in the Temple nurtured like a dove and received food from the hand of an angel.


                    As was previously detailed, the PJ was composed in the 2nd century, well before Muhammad was born. As a story, it circulated throughout the Mideast, and was used as material for other story makers. Muhammad heard versions of this story and repeated them as the Quran.



                    ================================================== ============

                    D From Sura 3 - The Imrans, verse 44

                    This is an account of a divine secret. We reveal it to you. You were not present when they cast lots to see which of them should have charge of Mary; nor were you present when they argued about her.



                    From "The History of Joseph the Carpenter", by From "The Apocryphal New Testament, by Elliot, 114:

                    Mary was being brought up in the Temple till she was twelve years old. The priests decided to give her to a husband. The lot fell on Joseph.


                    A similar story is found in another Infancy Gospel, the "The Nativity of Mary"

                    Now there was among the rest Joseph, of the house and family of David, a man of great age: and when all brought their rods, according to the order, he alone withheld his. Wherefore, when nothing in conformity with the divine voice appeared, the high priest thought it necessary to consult God a second time; and He answered, that of those who had been designated, he alone to whom the virgin ought to be espoused had not brought his rod. Joseph, therefore, was found out. For when he had brought his rod, and the dove came from heaven; and settled upon the top of it, it clearly appeared to all that he was the man to whom the virgin should be espoused.


                    The text of "The Nativity of Mary" can be found at

                    http://wesley.nnc.edu.noncanon/gospels/natmary.htm

                    The text of "The History of Joseph the Carpenter" can be found at

                    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0805.htm



                    ================================================== =============

                    E From Sura 3 - The Imrans, verse 49: (also refer to 5:110, 111)

                    .....He will say: "I bring you a sign from your Lord. From clay I will make for you the likeness of a bird. I shall breathe into it and, by God's leave, it shall become a living bird.....


                    Here, from "The Infancy Gospel of Thomas" is the source for the Quranic quote.

                    "The child Jesus, when 5 years of age, was playing on the road by a dirty stream of running water; and having brought it all together into ditches, immediately made it pure and clean; by saying a single word. Then having moistened some earth, he made of it twelve sparrows. And it was the Sabbath day when he did these things. There were many other children playing with him. Now a Jew, seeing what Jesus did, that he was playing on the Sabbath day, went his way to (Jesus') father Joseph. He said, "Behold, your son is at the stream of dirty water, and having taken up some mud, has made of it twelve sparrows, thus desecrating the Sabbath. On this Joseph went to the spot, and cried out, "Why did you do these things on the Sabbath day which it is not lawful to do?" Jesus then clapped his hands at the sparrows and cried aloud to them, "Go off!". So they, clucking, flew away. The Jews seeing it were astonished, and went and told their rulers what they had seen Jesus do."



                    ================================================== =======

                    I've presented Quranic quotes from both Jewish and Christian sources. As was already stated, the Mishnah was composed before Muhammad's time I've also quoted from several New Testament Apocrypha works that are dated well before the creation of Islam.


                    St. Clair Tisdall summed it up best when he wrote: in "The Original Sources Of The Quran", published by Society For The Promotion Of Christian Knowledge, London pages 210 - 211: 1905:

                    "From the careful examination of the whole subject dealt with in this chapter (i.e., The Influence Of Christianity & Christian Apocryphal Books) we therefore conclude that the influence of true and genuine Christian teaching upon the Quran and upon Islam in general has been very slight indeed, while on the other hand apocryphal traditions and in certain respects heretical doctrines have a claim to be considered as forming one of the original sources of Muhammadan faith. " [36]

                    Other sources can be found here:

                    http://www.answering-islam.org/Books/Tisdall/Sources0/

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      The website you linked to is the other side of the coin of "answering Christianity" ---both are apologetics sites that respond to each others accusations....
                      Rather than copy/paste---those interested in such response can simply go to this website themselves and browse through....?......
                      http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac.htm

                      The orientalist scholarship of old dismissed the Quranic stories retold from the Bible...but todays non-orientalist-western scholars are looking at these stories as a dialogue the Quran is having with the Bible. As such, the purpose/clarification/response the Quran is making specific to these stories is seen as shedding light on/giving new perspective on --- the Bible stories.

                      However, IF, as you claim, the Prophet wrote the Quran---then the use of such a wide range of literary sources and the original response to them---would indicate he was highly learned/knowledgeable about the whole range of scripture of both the Torah/Talmud, the whole range of Gospel traditions as well as other related stories and discussions. This would indicate---at the very least---that he was a scholar. ....but history shows he was not a scholar---but a merchant.
                      (Some orientalist scholars have previously put forth the idea that there was a group of Christian and Jewish scholars might have helped---but the Quran has one voice (it is not a group work) so that theory is not favored)

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Here is the Quranic story:

                        We formerly bestowed guidance on Abraham, for We knew him well. He said to his father and to his people: "What are these images to which you are so devoted?" They replied: "They are the gods our fathers worshipped." He said: "Then you are your fathers are in the grossest error." "Is this the truth that you are preaching," they asked, "or is this but a jest?" "Indeed," he answered, "Your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth. It was He that made them: to this I bear witness. By the Lord, I will overthrow your idols as soon as you have turned your backs." He broke them all in pieces, except their supreme god, so that they might return to him. "Who has done this to our deities?" asked some. "He must surely be a wicked man." Others replied: "We have heard a youth called Abraham speak of them." They said: "then bring him here in sight of all the people, that they may act as witnesses." "Abraham," they said, "was it you who did this to our deities?" "No," he replied. "It was their chief who smote them. Ask them, if they can speak." Thereupon they turned their thoughts upon themselves and said to each other: "Surely you are the ones who have done wrong." [Confounded as they were, they said to Abraham:] "You know they cannot speak." He answered: "Would you then worship that, instead of God, which can neither help nor harm you? Shame on you and on your idols! Have you no sense?" They cried: "Burn him and avenge your gods, if you must punish him!" "Fire," We said, "be cool to Abraham and keep him safe."



                        Here is the quote from the Mishnah Rabbah, Genesis (Noach) (CH 38:11-13) Vol. 1, pp. 310 -311, Soncino Edition, Soncino Press London, Editors Dr H Freedman and Maurice Simon. [28]

                        13. AND HARAN DIED IN THE PRESENCE OF HIS FATHER TERAH (XI,28). R Hiyya said: Terah was a manufacturer of idols. He once went away somewhere and left Abraham to sell them in his place. A man came and wished to buy one. 'How old are you?' Abraham asked him 'Fifty years' was the reply 'Woe to such a man!' he exclaimed. 'You are fifty years old and would worship a day old object!' At this he became ashamed and departed.

                        On another occasion a woman came with a plateful of flour and requested him, 'Take this and offer it to them.' So he took a stick and broke them and put the stick in the hand of the largest. When his father returned he demanded, 'What have you done to them?' 'I cannot concealed it from you' he rejoined. "A woman came with a plateful of fine meal and requested me to offer it to them. One claimed 'I must eat first' while another claimed 'I must eat first'. Thereupon the largest arose, took the stick, and broke them." 'Why do you make sport of me' he cried out; 'have they any knowledge!' 'Should not your ears listen to what your mouth is saying' he retorted. Thereupon he seized him and delivered him to Nimrod.

                        'Let us worship fire' he (Nimrod) proposed. 'Let us rather worship water', which extinguishes the fire' replied he. 'Then let us worship water!' ' Let us rather worship the clouds which bear the water.' 'The let us worship the clouds!' 'Let us rather worship the winds which disperse the clouds' 'Let us worship the wind!' 'Let us worship human beings, who withstand the wind' 'You are just bandying words' he exclaimed; 'We will worship naught but fire. Behold, I will cast you into it, and let the God whom you adore come and save you from it.

                        Now Haran was standing there undecided. If Abram is victorious, (he thought), I will say that I am of Abram's belief, while if Nimrod is victorious I will say that I am on Nimrod's side. When Abram descended into the fiery furnace and was saved, he (Nimrod) asked him, 'of whose belief are you?' 'Of Abram's' he replied. Thereupon he seized and cast him into the fire; his inwards were scorched and he died in his father's presence. Hence it is written, AND HARAN DIED IN THE PRESENCE OF ('AL PENE) HIS FATHER TERAH.


                        ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Surah 21 is generally considered a middle Meccan Surah---as such, among the audience would have been the "idol-worshipers" (polytheists of Mecca who had more than 300 statues/idols placed around the kaaba/house of worship.) If you compare the two stories (Quran, Bible) the Quranic story is more appropriate for the specificities of the audience it addresses---it clearly and reasonably persuades that the use of one's intellect and reason CAN arrive at the conclusion that man-made objects cannot be God. The unnecessary details of the Bible story only detract from this clear point and would have added inappropriate distraction to the main/important point. (Remember---The purpose of the Quran is to give Guidance to humanity so that they turn/return to the One God)

                        In my opinion---there is also a touch of humor in the story. When dealing with such a sensitive topic that would have created instant outrage---this touch of humor may have helped reduce the fire of anger?....The Quran says God is most Compassionate and Mericful---and perhaps the Quranic version of the story indicates this....?......

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Here is the Quranic story:

                          We formerly bestowed guidance on Abraham, for We knew him well. He said to his father and to his people: "What are these images to which you are so devoted?" They replied: "They are the gods our fathers worshipped." He said: "Then you are your fathers are in the grossest error." "Is this the truth that you are preaching," they asked, "or is this but a jest?" "Indeed," he answered, "Your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth. It was He that made them: to this I bear witness. By the Lord, I will overthrow your idols as soon as you have turned your backs." He broke them all in pieces, except their supreme god, so that they might return to him. "Who has done this to our deities?" asked some. "He must surely be a wicked man." Others replied: "We have heard a youth called Abraham speak of them." They said: "then bring him here in sight of all the people, that they may act as witnesses." "Abraham," they said, "was it you who did this to our deities?" "No," he replied. "It was their chief who smote them. Ask them, if they can speak." Thereupon they turned their thoughts upon themselves and said to each other: "Surely you are the ones who have done wrong." [Confounded as they were, they said to Abraham:] "You know they cannot speak." He answered: "Would you then worship that, instead of God, which can neither help nor harm you? Shame on you and on your idols! Have you no sense?" They cried: "Burn him and avenge your gods, if you must punish him!" "Fire," We said, "be cool to Abraham and keep him safe."


                          The Quran---like other wisdom teachings---has multiple layers of meaning. If we look at this story in light of the Throne verse (ayatul kursi) and Surah 112 --which explains Tawheed (One God/Unity) Then we find a Truth. It shows the correct relationship between man and God. = It is God who creates Man---Man must not create God.
                          God, The One, creates all humanity = Tawheed
                          Man creates "God" for his benefit = Shirk
                          Thus---The Quran shows it is not enough that there not be many Gods. Even if there is an idol of the one God---it is not correct because idols are created by Man. This inverts the correct relationship---that it is God that creates Mankind. When man creates God, the relationship becomes abused for their own desires and vanities which is the basis of exclusivism. (My God is better than your God therefore we are superior/chosen etc...)

                          God is the creater of all humanity and his grace (unmerited mercy) and blessings fall on all humanity regardless of their labels---Atheists, Jews, Buddhists, Russians, Chinese...whatever....
                          To be grateful is a capacity present in all humanity and gratefulness to God, the Creator, is the basis/starting point for the love of God (Taqwa).

                          Notice the last lines of the story "Burn him and avenge your gods, if you must punish him" ---when love of God (Taqwa) is absent, vengeance prevails---when love of God is present, justice tempered with compassion and mercy can prevail....
                          To bring about peace, humanity needs to have the correct understanding of the relationship between God and humanity. (right belief).


                          Is not the love of God (Taqwa) the message of Jesus Christ (pbuh) also?

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by siam View Post
                            Stories of the Quran---The Quran uses all sorts of literary devices to make a point, to clarify, to explain, to persuade....it uses imagery, stories, juxtaposition, metaphors, similitude and many other literary devices....
                            so...the use of folk stories is not an issue....
                            ....the Quran itself explains this in Surah 2 verse 26

                            Yusuf Ali: Allah disdains not to use the similitude of things, lowest as well as highest. Those who believe know that it is truth from their Lord; but those who reject Faith say: "What means Allah by this similitude?" By it He causes many to stray, and many He leads into the right path; but He causes not to stray, except those who forsake (the path),-

                            Shakir: Surely Allah is not ashamed to set forth any parable-- (that of) a gnat or any thing above that; then as for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord, and as for those who disbelieve, they say: What is it that Allah means by this parable: He causes many to err by it and many He leads aright by it! but He does not cause to err by it (any) except the transgressors,

                            Did not Jesus (pbuh) also use stories to teach?

                            The message(scripture) can be "universal" that is---it can reach future generations because it survives time better than human beings. The life-span of human beings is limited to a particular generation...therefore a Prophet with a human lifespan can only be witnessed by his own generation. The message he leaves behind can carry the wisdom forward. The nature of "wisdom" is that it remains consistently "true" regardless of time. For example, no matter if it is the past, or the present, or the future---the Golden rule remains consistently true. From the Muslim perspective, the message of God (Shema/Tawheed) has been consistently true throughout time. All the Prophets from Prophet Adam to Prophet Mohammed have reminded humanity of this message. However, as the Quran notes---human beings are forgetful and the reminder that there is only One God gets distorted into other types of worship....
                            Quran calls Jesus (pbuh) as Masih (Messiah) which is understood to mean the last Prophet sent to the Jews. The Quran is the last message from God sent to humanity. Therefore, it corrects all that has been previously lost or distorted and reminds of the consistent truth throughout time---that of One God/Unity (Tawheed). (It also fulfills the promise God made to Prophet Adam and Prophet Abraham that their decedents will sent Guidance)

                            The Prophets are not with us but the Quran exists---it has existed for 1400 years and it exists today---anyone can purchase it and examine it. It will continue to exist in the future and those generations can also take advantage of its wisdom if they so choose......
                            The Qur'an says Jesus is THE Messiah, not just Messiah. The message of the Messiah is for all people, Jews and Gentiles.

                            He said: "so (it will be): thy Lord saith, 'That is easy for me: and (we wish) to appoint him as a sign unto men and mercy from us.'" S. 19:21

                            And (remember) who guarded her chastity: "We breathed into her of our Spirit and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples." S. 21:91

                            Luke 24: 25 He said to them, “How unwise and slow you are to believe in your hearts all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Didn’t the Messiah have to suffer these things and enter into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He interpreted for them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by siam View Post
                              The website you linked to is the other side of the coin of "answering Christianity" ---both are apologetics sites that respond to each others accusations....
                              Rather than copy/paste---those interested in such response can simply go to this website themselves and browse through....?......
                              http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac.htm

                              The orientalist scholarship of old dismissed the Quranic stories retold from the Bible...but todays non-orientalist-western scholars are looking at these stories as a dialogue the Quran is having with the Bible. As such, the purpose/clarification/response the Quran is making specific to these stories is seen as shedding light on/giving new perspective on --- the Bible stories.

                              However, IF, as you claim, the Prophet wrote the Quran---then the use of such a wide range of literary sources and the original response to them---would indicate he was highly learned/knowledgeable about the whole range of scripture of both the Torah/Talmud, the whole range of Gospel traditions as well as other related stories and discussions. This would indicate---at the very least---that he was a scholar. ....but history shows he was not a scholar---but a merchant.
                              (Some orientalist scholars have previously put forth the idea that there was a group of Christian and Jewish scholars might have helped---but the Quran has one voice (it is not a group work) so that theory is not favored)
                              I read answering-christianity and answering-islam.

                              I copied and pasted because it is easier than typing from the copies of the books I have.

                              Jesus speaking from the cradle and making clay birds that fly can be read here:

                              http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/LostBooks/infancyall.htm

                              This one makes Jesus out to be a modern day Dennis the Menace.

                              Clip: 13 They brought him then to a more learned master, who, when he saw him, said, say Aleph. 14 And when he had said Aleph, he master bade him pronounce Beth; to which the Lord Jesus replied, Tell me first the meaning of the letter Aleph, and then I will pronounce Beth. 15 But this master, when he lift up his hand to whip him, had HIS HAND PRESENTLY WITHERED, AND HE DIED. 16 THEN SAID JOSEPH TO ST. MARY, HENCEFORTH WE WILL NOT ALLOW HIM TO GO OUT OF THE HOUSE; FOR EVERY ONE WHO DISPLEASES HIM IS KILLED.

                              Muhammad would have heard these stories. He was not highly learned/knowledgeable because he did not know they were not historical.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by siam View Post
                                Here is the Quranic story:

                                We formerly bestowed guidance on Abraham, for We knew him well. He said to his father and to his people: "What are these images to which you are so devoted?" They replied: "They are the gods our fathers worshipped." He said: "Then you are your fathers are in the grossest error." "Is this the truth that you are preaching," they asked, "or is this but a jest?" "Indeed," he answered, "Your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth. It was He that made them: to this I bear witness. By the Lord, I will overthrow your idols as soon as you have turned your backs." He broke them all in pieces, except their supreme god, so that they might return to him. "Who has done this to our deities?" asked some. "He must surely be a wicked man." Others replied: "We have heard a youth called Abraham speak of them." They said: "then bring him here in sight of all the people, that they may act as witnesses." "Abraham," they said, "was it you who did this to our deities?" "No," he replied. "It was their chief who smote them. Ask them, if they can speak." Thereupon they turned their thoughts upon themselves and said to each other: "Surely you are the ones who have done wrong." [Confounded as they were, they said to Abraham:] "You know they cannot speak." He answered: "Would you then worship that, instead of God, which can neither help nor harm you? Shame on you and on your idols! Have you no sense?" They cried: "Burn him and avenge your gods, if you must punish him!" "Fire," We said, "be cool to Abraham and keep him safe."


                                The Quran---like other wisdom teachings---has multiple layers of meaning. If we look at this story in light of the Throne verse (ayatul kursi) and Surah 112 --which explains Tawheed (One God/Unity) Then we find a Truth. It shows the correct relationship between man and God. = It is God who creates Man---Man must not create God.
                                God, The One, creates all humanity = Tawheed
                                Man creates "God" for his benefit = Shirk
                                Thus---The Quran shows it is not enough that there not be many Gods. Even if there is an idol of the one God---it is not correct because idols are created by Man. This inverts the correct relationship---that it is God that creates Mankind. When man creates God, the relationship becomes abused for their own desires and vanities which is the basis of exclusivism. (My God is better than your God therefore we are superior/chosen etc...)

                                God is the creater of all humanity and his grace (unmerited mercy) and blessings fall on all humanity regardless of their labels---Atheists, Jews, Buddhists, Russians, Chinese...whatever....
                                To be grateful is a capacity present in all humanity and gratefulness to God, the Creator, is the basis/starting point for the love of God (Taqwa).

                                Notice the last lines of the story "Burn him and avenge your gods, if you must punish him" ---when love of God (Taqwa) is absent, vengeance prevails---when love of God is present, justice tempered with compassion and mercy can prevail....
                                To bring about peace, humanity needs to have the correct understanding of the relationship between God and humanity. (right belief).


                                Is not the love of God (Taqwa) the message of Jesus Christ (pbuh) also?

                                The commentary in my Qur'an treats this story as a historical event.

                                This is the Jewish story:

                                https://www.ourjewishcommunity.org/l...and-the-idols/

                                And an amusing video here, suitable for children.

                                http://www.chabad.org/kids/article_c...ng-Abraham.htm

                                My point is that the Qur'an treats this story as an event in history; a story Muhammad would have heard and repeated.

                                The Creator, the One True God said:

                                "Do not worship any other gods besides me.” Do not make idols of any kind, whether in the shape of birds or animals or fish. You must never worship or bow down to them, for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God who will not share your affection with any other god! (Exodus 20:3-5 NLT)

                                Their idols are silver and gold, the work of human hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see. They have ears, but do not hear; noses, but do not smell. They have hands, but do not feel; feet, but do not walk; and they do not make a sound in their throat. Those who make them become like them; so do all who trust in them. Psalm 115:4-8

                                That is all that needed to be said -- no need to copy a story that is not historical.

                                Comment

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