Originally posted by siam
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At the time South America was in political turmoil and fascists governments persecuted the RCC and tried to stamp the Church out Mexico, Argentina & Brazil come to mind). So, on one hand there was sympathy for the defenders of the faith, but in another respect, there was sympathy for the militarists (governments) whose aim was to eliminate the excesses inherited from Spanish colonialism. A third component was the segregation policy of the USA, the USA's anti-RCC stance and the USA's support of the RCC persecutions. So that tended to push the sympathy dial dramatically towards the defenders of the faith.
Things got complicated throughout South America in the 1950s, 60s & beyond. The USA's Monroe doctrine (these days called the "Bush doctrine") caused huge problems!
To the USA, the policy gave them carte blanche to assassinate anyone they didn't like (whether democratically elected or not) and install their own puppets. Many of these governments were suppressive, murderous and exploitative (Pinochet in Chile particularly comes to mind).
I must state at this point, that internationally there was sympathy & prayer but no (or very little) tangible action. So I guess we can evaluate the situation as the RCC accepted the persecution on the chin, and left circumstances to the will of God, and the people on the ground.
There is an excellent novel by a convert to the RCC (Graham Greene) called the "Power & the Glory" that is well worth a read (back in the distant past, at my RCC school, it was a set text for English class). Synopsis: Set in Mexico in the 1930s, a less that admirable priest is fleeing persecution. He is pursued by a police lieutenant who detests the RCC...Here is Wiki's take on the book...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_and_the_Glory
Originally posted by siam
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The RCC holds observer status at the UN. It only attempts to interfere in the policies of national governments when it perceives injustice as occurring either economically, socially or politically. At a congregational it encourages the people to obey the government in all things (except where it compromises the faith), pay taxes, be honest with dealing in anything, live a moral life etc.
Basically the RCC butts out of peoples lives as much as possible (all must be governed by conscience). Judgement is the right of God alone. Meanwhile the Church can provide guidance towards gaining a prosperous and happy life.
Originally posted by siam
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The other ideas presented by Wiki are out-moded. Pros: next to none in a technologically advanced societies. Cons: tons. Many of which are reflected in the failures of attempted implementation during the 20th century.
Oz might be unique (I doubt it), some of the ideas put forward in the Wiki article were old-hat by 1891 when the Pope issued his encyclical. In Oz home ownership has always been held to be a God given right! In my day that equated to a quarter block in the suburbs. Until very recently that has always been attainable to the average worker in the Capital & Regional cities. Elsewhere in Oz, you'd be talking large scale acreage. These days: in most of the Capitals we have run out of land, so property consolidation and highrise are becoming the norm for the metros (those that refuse to travel longer than 30 mins to get to work, and want all services at their front door).
In 1891 Pope Leo XIII promulgated Rerum novarum...Affirmed in the encyclical was the right of all men to own property, the necessity of a system that allowed "as many as possible of the people to become owners", the duty of employers to provide safe working conditions and sufficient wages, and the right of workers to unionise.
Guess the Pope hadn't heard about the British sovereign colonies in New Holland (now known as Australia) where these things were already in place.
A month or so ago, I came across a report from the 1920s written by an Oz union leader about his meetings with Lenin during a soviet conference in Russia. Apparently, couldn't understand how Oz had achieved most of the aspirations of the worker without a shot being fired. Guess that is why Communism never got a foothold here... And despite all this, we workers in Oz still whinge about our working conditions... We just keep upping the ante & the bosses eventually pay...
To me, unionism is an interesting subject. When I started full-time employment, I was positioned in a management training programme and the union wouldn't let me join because by their rule book I was management (actually a very low paid clerk). However, my employer required me to become an affiliate of a particular professional body (a guild). After finishing my studies I automatically became an Associate. Could have rises to Fellow status but didn't see the point. The whole concept of guilds (closed shop) is a joke on the modern world!
(in the encyclical]...Common and government property ownership was expressly dismissed as a means of helping the poor.
Just proves how fallible people can be. Come the after effects of WW1 & WW2, throughout the world government alone could finance the reconstruction. Inflation was rampant...with all its consequences. Public housing is a necessity to smooth demand and balance proprty prices.The argument in Wiki's section on "Private Property" is a bit of a furphy. The majority of modern day enterprises don't need "land" but "abodes". In the world we are already seeing the construction of highrise farms and food grown hydroponically. Imo, we have to re-educate people like me with an essentiality of "land" mentality. What we need to focus on is "property" and "skill sharing".
For instance: imo collectivism is natural to 3rd world agrarianism. The community (often an extended family) owns the property. Tilling, sowing, weeding & harvest are shared tasks.
As history well shows, private property ownership is a multi-edged sword. When the owner dies the property has to be divided amoungst those assigned an inheritance. Ultimately, allotments become too small to be economically viable. Fields are overworked, become infertile and harvests decrease. Salinity increase and desertification sets in...People are forced to become nomadic looking for new lands, meet up with a "private property owner" and conflict ensues...The scenario has regularly been repeated throughout history...
Banks
Distributism favors the dissolution of the current private bank system, or more specifically its profit-making basis in charging interest. Dorothy Day, for example, suggested[according to whom?] abolishing legal enforcement of interest-rate contracts (usury). It would not entail nationalization but could involve government involvement of some sort. Distributists look favorably on credit unions as a preferable alternative to banks.
Distributism favors the dissolution of the current private bank system, or more specifically its profit-making basis in charging interest. Dorothy Day, for example, suggested[according to whom?] abolishing legal enforcement of interest-rate contracts (usury). It would not entail nationalization but could involve government involvement of some sort. Distributists look favorably on credit unions as a preferable alternative to banks.
To me this is silliness. Banks, Building Societies & Credit Unions are the same thing functionally. The major difference is each has a different economy of scale. All are reliant on collective savings, and direct capital investment.
Until the issue of direct capital investment is resolved we are stuck with profit (=interest) scenario which drives up the cost of property acquirement. Currently, Islamic (halal) banking has no solution to the "profit" problem.
My solution is simple: 1. Force the wealthy to make funds available at no cost whatsoever but with a guarantee of the return of their capital. Of course, if I had the capability to do such, I'd be quickly captured and hung from the nearest telgraph poll.
Originally posted by siam
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Victoria has resolved the issue of double stamp duty on halal loans. The other states are slow to follow because they have been arguing about abolishing stamp duty and replacing it with a property tax (At the moment the primary residence (home) is exempt from all federal & state taxes, except for stamp duty & local govt service charges. Property tax is only payable if you own more than one property with the one state).
The only other issue for Muslims, is to obey the local laws, and in contracts, demonstrate you aren't attempting to avoid income or capital gains tax or avoid your duty of care, which is easy (legislation not required. Its simply a back office function of the Tax commissioner or the Consumer Ombudsman etc).
Originally posted by siam
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Thus the RCC does retain the teaching of inherited "original sin" but we we don't subscribe to the protestant idea that human nature is inherently depraved because of Adam's preference for Eve over God (cp. Genesis 3:6,17 with 2:16-17)
Originally posted by siam
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The status of babies has had diverse debate over the centuries but as a general rule it is determined that infants are under the care (eye) of God. On judgement day, he will do as he wills with them.
Logically a baby can't be born a Muslim or a RCC for that matter, but is born into a religious household, and learns submission through associatio.
According to psychologists children under five are totally introspective = nothing is external to their needs. Though they do have an inherent sense of empathy from birth. After 5yo (later for boys), children begin to develop a social (communal) identity. Interestingly, it is said that the average male doesn't achieve psychological maturity until about 25yo. Putting my legalist hat on: this raises the issue of when can a person be held rationally responsibly? Until after the Vietnam War in many countries you had to be 21yo to sign a legal contract for it to be enforceable. Now it is 18yo in Oz.
In the RCC we ritualise maturity "First Holy Communion" occurs when students are about 8yo, after this, there is a period of Catechism wherein the student is taught the precepts of the religions, by Year 6 of schooling "Confirmation" = conscious committment occurs. Prayer etc is learned by hands on experience from birth. The Eatern traditions (EOC, ROC & OOC) do things differently, which is probably closer to your paradigm.
Funny story: when I made my "First Holy Communion", I thought I had been filled with the Holy Spirit and felt special, but it turned out I had a food alergy...
Originally posted by siam
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