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Quran 4: 157

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Christian3 View Post

    Are you saying that even though the Jews did not crucify Jesus, the Romans did?

    I have discussed these verses with dozens and dozens of Muslims and the result was: "It is crystal clear that Jesus was not crucified by anyone and that he did not die. It is clear that Allah took Jesus to heaven thus saving him from death."

    I have interpreted verse 4:157 like you do. It is merely saying that the Jews didn't do it. The Jewish leaders certainly wanted Jesus dead, but it was the Romans who actually killed Jesus.

    004.157 YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

    "They" is speaking of the Jews. However, the Jews would never have called Jesus the "Christ" because the Jews did not believe Jesus was the Messiah. This is telling me that someone else made up this dialog.

    Quest82: There is no making up because Paul was a Jew and said that Jews (not Romans) killed Jesus in 1 Thess 2:14-15.
    Thanks Christian3 for your relating your experience.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      Paul was saying that the Temple officials (the Jews) were ultimately responsible (taking him to Pilate and accusing him of insurrection). Please quote your reference.

      Comment


      • #18
        Hakeem, why do you keep creating new accounts? If you lost your password we can reset it for you.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          Hakeem, why do you keep creating new accounts? If you lost your password we can reset it for you.
          Sorry. Not Hakeem

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Quest82 View Post
            Given that Paul was involved in the stoning of Stephen he would have known that if Jesus was literally executed by the Jews He would have been stoned rather than crucified. Moreover, among those that Paul would have been addressing in Thessalonians would have been Jewish converts. It would hardly make sense for Paul to be blaming them for persecuting Christians ("drove us out"). Some scholars even hold that Jews may have been the majority of converts in the city based upon I Thessalonians 2:14, but this is debated.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              Given that Paul was involved in the stoning of Stephen he would have known that if Jesus was literally executed by the Jews He would have been stoned rather than crucified. Moreover, among those that Paul would have been addressing in Thessalonians would have been Jewish converts. It would hardly make sense for Paul to be blaming them for persecuting Christians ("drove us out"). Some scholars even hold that Jews may have been the majority of converts in the city based upon I Thessalonians 2:14, but this is debated.
              Thanks for your input though if we stick to the text of 1 thess 2:14-15, it says Jews killed the essiah

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Quest82 View Post

                Thanks for your input though if we stick to the text of 1 thess 2:14-15, it says Jews killed the essiah
                Context is everything.

                It is rarely a good idea to examine passages in isolation.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  Context is everything.

                  It is rarely a good idea to examine passages in isolation.
                  Agreed but to what extent is another whole subject.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Quest82 View Post

                    Thanks Christian3 for your relating your experience.
                    Regarding 1 thess 2:14-15: This means that it was the Jews who brought Jesus to the Romans to be put to death.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Quest82 View Post

                      Sorry. Not Hakeem
                      Sure you are. Same posting style and same other clues. Your other account is still active, if you switch back to using it we won't ban it and you permanently. But this sockpuppet nonsense needs to stop now.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Christian3 View Post

                        Regarding 1 thess 2:14-15: This means that it was the Jews who brought Jesus to the Romans to be put to death.
                        Thanks Christian3. However, 1 thess 2:14-15 does not say so.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Quest82 View Post

                          Thanks Christian3. However, 1 thess 2:14-15 does not say so.
                          Obviously, you have not read the New Testament.

                          The Jews wanted Jesus dead; they could not kill him because only the Romans could so they took him to the Romans and they killed him but this doesn't let the Jews off the hook.

                          Matthew 20:18,19 - 'We are going up to Jerusalem, and the SON OF MAN WILL BE BETRAYED to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. THEY WILL CONDEMN HIM TO DEATH and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. ON THE THIRD DAY HE WILL BE RAISED TO LIFE!'

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                            Sure you are. Same posting style and same other clues. Your other account is still active, if you switch back to using it we won't ban it and you permanently. But this sockpuppet nonsense needs to stop now.
                            So, Quest82 is Hakeem. Thanks for letting us know.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Christian3 View Post

                              Obviously, you have not read the New Testament.

                              The Jews wanted Jesus dead; they could not kill him because only the Romans could so they took him to the Romans and they killed him but this doesn't let the Jews off the hook.

                              Matthew 20:18,19 - 'We are going up to Jerusalem, and the SON OF MAN WILL BE BETRAYED to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. THEY WILL CONDEMN HIM TO DEATH and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. ON THE THIRD DAY HE WILL BE RAISED TO LIFE!'
                              Thanks Christian3. I agree that the Jews led to his death but the killing was done by the Romans in John 19:23.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Christian3 View Post

                                Obviously, you have not read the New Testament.

                                The Jews wanted Jesus dead; they could not kill him because only the Romans could so they took him to the Romans and they killed him but this doesn't let the Jews off the hook.

                                Matthew 20:18,19 - 'We are going up to Jerusalem, and the SON OF MAN WILL BE BETRAYED to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. THEY WILL CONDEMN HIM TO DEATH and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. ON THE THIRD DAY HE WILL BE RAISED TO LIFE!'
                                Then there is the fact that those he was writing to already knew the account of the crucifixion and didn't need a detailed dissertation explaining each aspect.

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                                Comment

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