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Quran 4: 157

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  • Quran 4: 157

    Dear all

    I noticed that several read into the Quran 4:157 in relation to the crucifixion. No where in this above verse or in the Quran Quran claims Jesus did not die.

    Quran 4:157 presents the claim of the Jews of killing Jesus and denies clearly;

    "And their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah" And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to appear so to them"

    Yes it was made to appear to them that Jews killed Jesus in the writing of Paul in 1 Thess 2:14-15:

    Paul says "14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone"


  • #2
    Hi, and welcome to Tweb.

    Most translations of the qur'an I've read simply say that Jesus appeared to have been crucified and died. This wasn't something that Muhammad made up on its own but rather was due to the influence of Docetism (which held that Jesus did not have a physical body during his life on earth but only an illusionary one).


    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks rogue06. But as an arab and arabic speaker and reader, the arabic Quran in 4:157 does not say "Jesus appeared to have been crucified and died".

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Quest82 View Post
        Thanks rogue06. But as an arab and arabic speaker and reader, the arabic Quran in 4:157 does not say "Jesus appeared to have been crucified and died".
        That would be what the Sahih International and Muhammad Sarwar translations reads, however some other translations don't agree

        Yusuf Ali: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

        Pickthall: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

        Shakir: And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

        Arberry: and for their saying, 'We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God' -- yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them. Those who are at variance concerning him surely are in doubt regarding him; they have no knowledge of him, except the following of surmise; and they slew him not of a certainty -- no indeed;


        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #5
          Yes there can be non-literal translations. However, the arabic text does not say it in anyway. So it is a matter of what the translator(s) had in mind.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Quest82 View Post
            Yes there can be non-literal translations. However, the arabic text does not say it in anyway. So it is a matter of what the translator(s) had in mind.
            So, essentially those who wrote that Jesus appeared to have been crucified and died were just making up something. Are you sure that is the position that you want to take?

            Obviously translations vary in quality but I've never heard, for instance, of the Yusuf Ali translation as being listed as anything but excellent.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Quest82 View Post
              Dear all

              I noticed that several read into the Quran 4:157 in relation to the crucifixion. No where in this above verse or in the Quran Quran claims Jesus did not die.

              Quran 4:157 presents the claim of the Jews of killing Jesus and denies clearly;

              "And their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah" And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to appear so to them"

              Yes it was made to appear to them that Jews killed Jesus in the writing of Paul in 1 Thess 2:14-15:

              Paul says "14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone"
              Are you saying that Surah 4:157 is not denying that Jesus died, but only that the Jews did not do it?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                So, essentially those who wrote that Jesus appeared to have been crucified and died were just making up something. Are you sure that is the position that you want to take?

                Quest82: I do not have access to their intentions. I know for sure that the arabic text of 4:157 denies that Jews killed or crucified Jesus.

                Obviously translations vary in quality but I've never heard, for instance, of the Yusuf Ali translation as being listed as anything but excellent.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Christian3 View Post

                  Are you saying that Surah 4:157 is not denying that Jesus died, but only that the Jews did not do it?
                  Yes to the extent of the text of 4:157.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Quest82 View Post
                    Quest82: I do not have access to their intentions. I know for sure that the arabic text of 4:157 denies that Jews killed or crucified Jesus.
                    That would make sense considering it was the Romans

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      That would make sense considering it was the Romans
                      Two points here:

                      1) Biblically it was the Roman soldiers who crucified Jesus according to John 19:23 "the soldiers crucified Jesus" which is in line with the historical fact that crucifixion was a roman way of execution.

                      source: John 19:23 NIV - When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they - Bible Gateway

                      2) It was Paul who made it clear that the Jews killed Jesus in 1 Thess 2:14-15 "Jews who killed Jesus and the prophets"

                      source: 1 Thessalonians 2:14-15 NIV - For you, brothers and sisters, became - Bible Gateway
                      Last edited by Quest82; 07-18-2022, 05:21 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Quest82 View Post

                        Yes to the extent of the text of 4:157.
                        Please go through Surah 4:157 & 8 and explain what you think they mean.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Christian3 View Post

                          Please go through Surah 4:157 & 8 and explain what you think they mean.
                          Thanks Christian3

                          I have gone through the arabic texts of these above verses over n over.

                          The texts of 4:157-158 state:

                          1. Jews did not crucify Jesus in 157

                          2. Jesus was lifted up by God in 158

                          4:158 reads "Rather, Allah raised him up to Himself. And Allah is Almighty, All-Wise"

                          source: Surah An-Nisa - 158 - Quran.comSurah An-Nisa - 158 - Quran.com
                          Last edited by Quest82; 07-18-2022, 05:30 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Quest82 View Post

                            Thanks Christian3

                            I have gone through the arabic texts of these above verses over n over.

                            The texts of 4:157-158 state:

                            1. Jews did not crucify Jesus in 157

                            2. Jesus was lifted up by God in 158
                            Are you saying that even though the Jews did not crucify Jesus, the Romans did?

                            I have discussed these verses with dozens and dozens of Muslims and the result was: "It is crystal clear that Jesus was not crucified by anyone and that he did not die. It is clear that Allah took Jesus to heaven thus saving him from death."

                            I have interpreted verse 4:157 like you do. It is merely saying that the Jews didn't do it. The Jewish leaders certainly wanted Jesus dead, but it was the Romans who actually killed Jesus.

                            004.157 YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

                            "They" is speaking of the Jews. However, the Jews would never have called Jesus the "Christ" because the Jews did not believe Jesus was the Messiah. This is telling me that someone else made up this dialog.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Quest82 View Post

                              Two points here:

                              1) Biblically it was the Roman soldiers who crucified Jesus according to John 19:23 "the soldiers crucified Jesus" which is in line with the historical fact that crucifixion was a roman way of execution.

                              source: John 19:23 NIV - When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they - Bible Gateway

                              2) It was Paul who made it clear that the Jews killed Jesus in 1 Thess 2:14-15 "Jews who killed Jesus and the prophets"

                              source: 1 Thessalonians 2:14-15 NIV - For you, brothers and sisters, became - Bible Gateway
                              Paul was saying that the Temple officials (the Jews) were ultimately responsible (taking him to Pilate and accusing him of insurrection).

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment

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