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Against the Claim of the Inimitability of the Qur'an

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  • #31
    What the Quran actually says...and what Muslims wish it would say...can be open for interpretation.....?.....

    The argument/logic for Arabic as a "Divine" language may be...
    The Quran is from God
    The Quran is in Arabic
    Therefore God "speaks" Arabic
    = God is Divine and God speaks Arabic, therefore Arabic is Divine language.....

    This is not my opinion....therefore, I would not be able to adequately defend such a position.
    My opinion is that the Quran clearly states why it is in Arabic----so that its primary audience can understand its message. In Islam, the purpose of a messenger is to deliver the message. If the message is in a language that cannot be understood by its audience---the goal cannot be accomplished.
    All words used in the Quran are for the purpose of communicating with its audience in the best way possible.

    For example---look at the word Firdaus (Arabic derived from the Persian word Pardis) (Note---Arabic is a Semitic language which is structurally different from the Indo-European language family)
    Firdaus = enclosed/walled garden (protected garden) Jannah = hidden garden/Paradise.
    Why use Firdaus when an Arabic word "Jannah" exists?....if you see the etymology of the word for Firdaus...it might explain.....

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persia...ns#cite_note-4
    From the time of the Achaemenid Empire, the idea of an earthly paradise spread through Persian literature and example to other cultures, both the Hellenistic gardens of the Seleucid Empire and the Ptolemies in Alexandria. The Avestan word pairidaēza-, Old Persian *paridaida-,[note 1]Median *paridaiza- (walled-around, i.e., a walled garden), was borrowed into Akkadian, and then into Greek Ancient Greek: παράδεισος, romanized: parádeisos, then rendered into the Latin paradīsus, and from there entered into European languages, e.g., French paradis, German Paradies, and English paradise.[3]

    As the word expresses, such gardens would have been enclosed. The garden's purpose was, and is, to provide a place for protected relaxation in a variety of manners: spiritual, and leisurely (such as meetings with friends), essentially a paradise on earth. The Common Iranian word for "enclosed space" was *pari-daiza- (Avestan pairi-daēza-), a term that was adopted by Christian mythology to describe the garden of Eden or Paradise on earth.


    This type of landscaping (walled garden) existed as a visual example for people of that time to see and experience. Thereby making the concept more clear.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by siam View Post
      What the Quran actually says...and what Muslims wish it would say...can be open for interpretation.....?.....

      The argument/logic for Arabic as a "Divine" language may be...
      The Quran is from God
      The Quran is in Arabic
      Therefore God "speaks" Arabic
      = God is Divine and God speaks Arabic, therefore Arabic is Divine language.....

      This is not my opinion....therefore, I would not be able to adequately defend such a position.
      My opinion is that the Quran clearly states why it is in Arabic----so that its primary audience can understand its message. In Islam, the purpose of a messenger is to deliver the message. If the message is in a language that cannot be understood by its audience---the goal cannot be accomplished.
      All words used in the Quran are for the purpose of communicating with its audience in the best way possible.

      For example---look at the word Firdaus (Arabic derived from the Persian word Pardis) (Note---Arabic is a Semitic language which is structurally different from the Indo-European language family)
      Firdaus = enclosed/walled garden (protected garden) Jannah = hidden garden/Paradise.
      Why use Firdaus when an Arabic word "Jannah" exists?....if you see the etymology of the word for Firdaus...it might explain.....

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persia...ns#cite_note-4
      From the time of the Achaemenid Empire, the idea of an earthly paradise spread through Persian literature and example to other cultures, both the Hellenistic gardens of the Seleucid Empire and the Ptolemies in Alexandria. The Avestan word pairidaēza-, Old Persian *paridaida-,[note 1]Median *paridaiza- (walled-around, i.e., a walled garden), was borrowed into Akkadian, and then into Greek Ancient Greek: παράδεισος, romanized: parádeisos, then rendered into the Latin paradīsus, and from there entered into European languages, e.g., French paradis, German Paradies, and English paradise.[3]

      As the word expresses, such gardens would have been enclosed. The garden's purpose was, and is, to provide a place for protected relaxation in a variety of manners: spiritual, and leisurely (such as meetings with friends), essentially a paradise on earth. The Common Iranian word for "enclosed space" was *pari-daiza- (Avestan pairi-daēza-), a term that was adopted by Christian mythology to describe the garden of Eden or Paradise on earth.


      This type of landscaping (walled garden) existed as a visual example for people of that time to see and experience. Thereby making the concept more clear.
      You provide an example confusing the origin of the word with its meaning. I did a similar thing (albeit on purpose) when I was giving tab a hard time about sushi. Literally it means "sour tasting" but that isn't how it is used or understood[1]

      In this case you use two words that are synonyms. They are used to describe the same thing. But you use the etymological definitions, what the words originated from, to try to create a distinct difference.



      1. a similar example would be "tofu" which literally means rotten beans, but you'll be hard pressed to find anyone using that literal definition.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #33
        ????
        Tofu = fermented beans (or rotten beans)....but there is no escaping the etymology---the Chinese characters do not hide the meaning/etymology. The forming of Chinese/and derivative languages, uses not only the sound of the character but also the attached meaning of the character to form words. So words literally mean what they are meant to mean.
        Semitic languages also do not hide their etymology since they form words using a root word system---often a 3 letter root word system.

        The construction of the Indo-European language family is not as transparent and perhaps etymology requires some digging into.....it is more sound-based system than meaning based....?....


        also---I did note that both words have a similar meaning...that was not the point. The Quran chooses words for the purpose of communicating to its audience.
        Last edited by siam; 08-09-2021, 12:07 AM.

        Comment


        • #34
          There was no such "genre" like you speculate retrospectively on to the mass of reciting / literature called the Koran in the relevant era.

          Orthodox muslim scholars and exegetes like Zamakshari and ibn khaldun et al, all struggled to justify the jumble of strings of unintelligible and incoherent (ibn Khaldun's terms) sentences found throughout the Koran they tried to interpret.

          These more learned and astute muslim scholars and commentators (compared to you) saw no syntactic rules nor grammatically sound Arabic that could justify or even affirm the stupendous and ridiculously laughable claim that the Koran was "wa kitabum mubeen" - "A clear book".

          To another studied muslim, Ali Dashti writing in the twentieth century, the Koranic contents were all as clear as mud. Far from being "mubeen."

          Read all about it in Dashti's brutally honest book "Bist O Seh Sal" or "Twenty-three Years, a study of the prophetic career of Muhamed."



          Originally posted by siam View Post
          Dan

          It is important to establish genre if one is attempting an analysis. A thorough analysis is important if one attempts replication....a haiku is not a sonnet...If one is attempting to reproduce a haiku, one cannot use the tools and literary rules of a sonnet.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by siam View Post
            ????
            Tofu = fermented beans (or rotten beans)....but there is no escaping the etymology---the Chinese characters do not hide the meaning/etymology. The forming of Chinese/and derivative languages, uses not only the sound of the character but also the attached meaning of the character to form words. So words literally mean what they are meant to mean.
            Semitic languages also do not hide their etymology since they form words using a root word system---often a 3 letter root word system.

            The construction of the Indo-European language family is not as transparent and perhaps etymology requires some digging into.....it is more sound-based system than meaning based....?....


            also---I did note that both words have a similar meaning...that was not the point. The Quran chooses words for the purpose of communicating to its audience.
            The qur'an choose non-Arabic words when often there were Arabic equivalents in spite of repeatedly claiming that Arabic was some sort of perfect language.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              The qur'an choose non-Arabic words when often there were Arabic equivalents in spite of repeatedly claiming that Arabic was some sort of perfect language.
              a) That is not what the Quran claims.
              even the verse you gave (43:3) states it is for "understanding"
              43:3 (Yusuf Ali)
              We have made it a Qur'an in Arabic, that ye may be able to understand

              b) All languages have borrowed words---where a derived or borrowed word is used, it is to enhance understanding/communication---but then---that is the whole purpose of the Quran.
              The Quran also defines many words within the text itself, so as to increase understanding/communication.

              Comment


              • #37
                Which means therefore that the Koran was NEVER in "perfect Arabic" at all, it was an inadequate vehicle and means to convey really meaningful ideas to humanity.

                By borrowing foreign words and terms from other far flung languages, the contents of the "mother of the book" / 'ummul kitab' was never in complete Arabic language to begin with, much less a 'clear Arabic one'! On the so-called 'preserved tablet' / lauh mahfuz, which the koran claims to come from, it was a hodge-podge of Akkadian+Hebrew+Parsi+Greek+Aramaic+Abyssinian + etc + Arabic and all these combined together with the imperfect Arabic made up the Mother of the Book to become an even more imperfect guidance to mankind!

                Enough already with the faulty logic and islamic propoganda, LOL!



                Originally posted by siam View Post

                a) That is not what the Quran claims.
                even the verse you gave (43:3) states it is for "understanding"
                43:3 (Yusuf Ali)
                We have made it a Qur'an in Arabic, that ye may be able to understand

                b) All languages have borrowed words---where a derived or borrowed word is used, it is to enhance understanding/communication---but then---that is the whole purpose of the Quran.
                The Quran also defines many words within the text itself, so as to increase understanding/communication.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                  Which means therefore that the Koran was NEVER in "perfect Arabic" at all, it was an inadequate vehicle and means to convey really meaningful ideas to humanity.

                  By borrowing foreign words and terms from other far flung languages, the contents of the "mother of the book" / 'ummul kitab' was never in complete Arabic language to begin with, much less a 'clear Arabic one'! On the so-called 'preserved tablet' / lauh mahfuz, which the koran claims to come from, it was a hodge-podge of Akkadian+Hebrew+Parsi+Greek+Aramaic+Abyssinian + etc + Arabic and all these combined together with the imperfect Arabic made up the Mother of the Book to become an even more imperfect guidance to mankind!

                  Enough already with the faulty logic and islamic propoganda, LOL!
                  Yup. Much of the myth of the i'jaz (succinctness) and the balaghah (eloquence) of the qur'an is based on the claim that it is written in the perfect language -- Arabic. After all, that is the language that the heavenly qur'an, umm al-kitāb, is supposedly written in hence the claim it is the perfect language. But a language so perfect that the author of the qur'an picked foreign words to use rather than their Arabic equivalents.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #39

                    Yes, indeed! To use eloquence and borrowed foreign language terms is an admission of imperfection and inadequacy from a source that was allegedly divine and "protected." It really needs protection from itself, being so incomplete and insufficient in language and content, and from a blinding pretentiousness.




                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    Yup. Much of the myth of the i'jaz (succinctness) and the balaghah (eloquence) of the qur'an is based on the claim that it is written in the perfect language -- Arabic. After all, that is the language that the heavenly qur'an, umm al-kitāb, is supposedly written in hence the claim it is the perfect language. But a language so perfect that the author of the qur'an picked foreign words to use rather than their Arabic equivalents.

                    Comment

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