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Against the Claim of the Inimitability of the Qur'an

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  • #16
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post


    As I said, have a look around. There's a number of really good threads.
    Why not just tell me, instead of having me scour the threads? your way of saying you don't know?

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      One of the laughable great scientific truths in the qur'an has to be what they claim wrt surah 78: 6-7 (about the earth being a bed and the mountains pegs) with that explained at 21:31

      We placed firmly embedded mountains on the earth, so it would not move under them…


      IIRC, several great Muslim scholars such as the al-Baidawi, Jalalan, and al-Zamakhshari (Jar Allah) have confirmed it, and yet mountains do not prevent earthquakes. In fact the process of mountain creation actually causes earthquakes. Many earthquakes occur near mountains and mountainous regions.

      Religious texts of any nature aren't science textbooks and should never be approached that way.

      I agree, it's very subjective. That's why the audience/purpose is very important. So many atheistic complaints about why Paul or so-and-so doesn't mention more about Jesus' earthly life - well he wasn't writing a biography!

      Yet, in his infinite ignorance + pretense of knowledge, Muhammad just dumped whatever technical, semi-relevant knowledge of his day he could get his hands on it seems

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by dida_jabal View Post

        Why not just tell me, instead of having me scour the threads? your way of saying you don't know?
        I'm sorry, did you somehow miss the rest of the post where I gave you the answer you asked?

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #19

          Indeed, many islamic practices and koranic injunctions are ludicrous and factually indefensible and in effect, casts real & serious doubts on islamic orthodoxy and its sunna.

          I have a number of muslim friends who say how farcical and ridiculous it is to face the black stone 'kaaba' in Mecca - the 'qibla' from wherever they are standing facing in the direction of Mecca. If you drew a straight line from where they were standing/kneeling in that very direction they would be facing outer space and NOT the 'kaaba'!

          Unless the earth was really flat then it is more likely their qibla direction will arrive at Mecca and the kaaba black stone idol.

          That's why some muslim scholars promote the flat earth nonsensical theory, to prop up the orthopraxy demand of Sunni Islam.. You see, facts and reality MUST be twisted and adjusted to fit into the orthodoxy and orthopraxy of the Koran and Islam, not the other way around!

          A real religion of Truth does NOT NEED to do such factual adjustments or fantastical manipulations, rather it will be supported by the simple and obvious facts known universally, instead.



          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          One of the laughable great scientific truths in the qur'an has to be what they claim wrt surah 78: 6-7 (about the earth being a bed and the mountains pegs) with that explained at 21:31

          We placed firmly embedded mountains on the earth, so it would not move under them…


          IIRC, several great Muslim scholars such as the al-Baidawi, Jalalan, and al-Zamakhshari (Jar Allah) have confirmed it, and yet mountains do not prevent earthquakes. In fact the process of mountain creation actually causes earthquakes. Many earthquakes occur near mountains and mountainous regions.

          Religious texts of any nature aren't science textbooks and should never be approached that way.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
            Indeed, many islamic practices and koranic injunctions are ludicrous and factually indefensible and in effect, casts real & serious doubts on islamic orthodoxy and its sunna.

            I have a number of muslim friends who say how farcical and ridiculous it is to face the black stone 'kaaba' in Mecca - the 'qibla' from wherever they are standing facing in the direction of Mecca. If you drew a straight line from where they were standing/kneeling in that very direction they would be facing outer space and NOT the 'kaaba'!

            Unless the earth was really flat then it is more likely their qibla direction will arrive at Mecca and the kaaba black stone idol.

            That's why some muslim scholars promote the flat earth nonsensical theory, to prop up the orthopraxy demand of Sunni Islam.. You see, facts and reality MUST be twisted and adjusted to fit into the orthodoxy and orthopraxy of the Koran and Islam, not the other way around!

            A real religion of Truth does NOT NEED to do such factual adjustments or fantastical manipulations, rather it will be supported by the simple and obvious facts known universally, instead.
            As recently as the 1990s the supreme religious authority of Saudi Arabia, Sheik Abdel-Aziz Ibn Baaz, issued a fatwa (religious edict) declaring that the earth was flat and IIRC those who argue otherwise should be punished.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              As recently as the 1990s the supreme religious authority of Saudi Arabia, Sheik Abdel-Aziz Ibn Baaz, issued a fatwa (religious edict) declaring that the earth was flat and IIRC those who argue otherwise should be punished.
              Goodness gracious!

              What a sham and a shame indeed. Not to mention a blatant insult to mankind's intelligence and intellectual integrity, by that religion's tenets and dogmas no less. Abusing political will and clout to force an untruth upon millions of people, who now know otherwise!

              Comment


              • #22
                The Muslim perspective...

                Note:- English and Arabic languages are structurally different therefore any examples are non-transferable...

                In Modern Western Music there are Genres such as Pop Music, Country, Metal, Rock...etc....Sometimes there is a "crossover"---when one musical style crosses over onto another Genre---such as a country music crossover to pop....
                There is also "fusion" where different genres are combined such as traditional music with metal to make something different.
                (example---the Japanese Metal Band Wagakki Band )
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ponTbDDMYjw

                The Quran is not considered a crossover or fusion---but a unique/independent genre of its own....and therefore comes with its own literary rules.

                Saj of poetry / fortune-telling vs Quranic Saj ----

                Saj = Pigeon Song/cooing of doves. (Rythmic Prose)

                In Western Music, Jazz often employs a technique called scat (nonsense sounds) for emotive purposes. An example from a Western pop genre is the song from the Police--de do do de da da....
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v2GDbEmjGE
                (Lyrics of the song might be relevant to this discussion.....)

                The primary purpose of Saj in poetry is emotive---to make it sound beautiful.
                The primary purpose of Saj in fortune-telling is to make it unclear/cryptic.

                Note:-- A "Prophet" in Christianity is understood as someone who gives a prophesy (foretelling). That is NOT the understanding in Islam/Quran.

                The purpose of Saj in the Quran is:-
                a) to enhance meaning
                b) to facilitate in memorization
                c) to give auditory beauty

                Because the purpose of the use of Saj is different (opposite), some scholars prefer to call the Quranic Saj as "Fasila " (judgement/definition). One of the stylistic characteristics of the Quran is its concise use of words. (concise= brief but comprehensive). It is in this area that most endeavors to replicate the Quranic style...fail.

                In the Pop song by Britney Spears, "Baby one more time"...there is a line that goes "hit me baby, one more time" ---the Swedish songwriters explain that this refers to a phone call, but by trying to be brief in order to fit the song---clarity is sacrificed.....
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-u5WLJ9Yk4


                For more introductory info---
                article by Hamza Tzortzis
                https://www.hamzatzortzis.com/the-qu...literary-form/

                Comment


                • #23

                  Then let's have another MORE Well-known Muslim Ali Dashti, correct the polemical propoganda asserted by Siam who is trying to 'sing the high praises' of a flawed Quran. Here's what Ali Dashti wrote in his book "Twenty Three Years, a Study of Muhammad's Prophetic Career" (BTW, NO Christian ever claims that Muhamed was even a prophet in a similar sense of a Biblical prophet!)

                  Ali wrote:

                  Intelligent and intellectual MUSLIMS like for example Ali Dashti was able to conclude this about the inconsistencies and flaws of the Koran:
                  "The Qor'an contains sentences which are incomplete and not fully intelligible without the aid of commentaries; foreign words, unfamiliar Arabic words, and words used with other than the normal meaning; adjectives and verbs inflected without observance of the concords of gender and number; illogically and ungrammatically applied pronouns which sometimes have no referent; and predicates which in rhymed passages are often remote from the subjects.

                  "These and other SUCH ABERRATIONS in the language have given scope to critics who deny the Qor'an's eloquence. THE PROBLEM ALSO OCCUPIED THE MINDS OF DEVOUT MOSLEMS. It forced the commentators to search for explanations and was probably one of the causes of disagreement over readings."
                  (pp. 48-49)

                  The views on the Qor'an held by Ebrahim on-Nazzam have been already mentioned, and it must be added that THEY WERE NOT HIS ALONE, but were also held by other scholars of the Mo'tazelite school such as Hesham b. 'Amr pl-Fuwati (d. ca. 218/833) and 'Abbad b. Solayman (d. ca. 250/864). ALL WERE DEVOUT BELIEVERS (ie. Muslims obviously..).

                  The great and penetrating Arab thinker Abu'l-'Ala ol-Ma'arri considered some of his own writings ON A PAR WITH THE ELOQUENCE OF THE QOR'AN. (p. 50)
                  "To sum up, more than ONE HUNDRED Qor'anic aberrations from the normal rules and structure of Arabic have been noted. Needless to say, THE COMMENTATORS STROVE
                  TO FIND EXPLANATIONS AND JUSTIFICATIONS FOR THESE IRREGULARITIES. Among them was the great commentator and philologist MAHMUD OZ-ZAMAKHSHARI (467/1075-538/1144)
                  Ali Dashti, 23 Years: A study of the Prophetic Career of Muhammad, Mazda Publishers,U.S.; 1994

                  Ali Dashti's admissions were published over 25 years ago. Today, more honest, bolder and intellectually confident Muslims are saying even more revelatory exposes about the "holes in islam's Koran" and its claimed 'literary and grammatical wonders'!

                  LOL!!



                  Originally posted by siam View Post
                  The Muslim perspective...

                  Note:- English and Arabic languages are structurally different therefore any examples are non-transferable...

                  In Modern Western Music there are Genres such as Pop Music, Country, Metal, Rock...etc....Sometimes there is a "crossover"---when one musical style crosses over onto another Genre---such as a country music crossover to pop....
                  There is also "fusion" where different genres are combined such as traditional music with metal to make something different.
                  (example---the Japanese Metal Band Wagakki Band )
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ponTbDDMYjw

                  The Quran is not considered a crossover or fusion---but a unique/independent genre of its own....and therefore comes with its own literary rules.

                  Saj of poetry / fortune-telling vs Quranic Saj ----

                  Saj = Pigeon Song/cooing of doves. (Rythmic Prose)

                  In Western Music, Jazz often employs a technique called scat (nonsense sounds) for emotive purposes. An example from a Western pop genre is the song from the Police--de do do de da da....
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v2GDbEmjGE
                  (Lyrics of the song might be relevant to this discussion.....)

                  The primary purpose of Saj in poetry is emotive---to make it sound beautiful.
                  The primary purpose of Saj in fortune-telling is to make it unclear/cryptic.

                  Note:-- A "Prophet" in Christianity is understood as someone who gives a prophesy (foretelling). That is NOT the understanding in Islam/Quran.

                  The purpose of Saj in the Quran is:-
                  a) to enhance meaning
                  b) to facilitate in memorization
                  c) to give auditory beauty

                  Because the purpose of the use of Saj is different (opposite), some scholars prefer to call the Quranic Saj as "Fasila " (judgement/definition). One of the stylistic characteristics of the Quran is its concise use of words. (concise= brief but comprehensive). It is in this area that most endeavors to replicate the Quranic style...fail.

                  In the Pop song by Britney Spears, "Baby one more time"...there is a line that goes "hit me baby, one more time" ---the Swedish songwriters explain that this refers to a phone call, but by trying to be brief in order to fit the song---clarity is sacrificed.....
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-u5WLJ9Yk4


                  For more introductory info---
                  article by Hamza Tzortzis
                  https://www.hamzatzortzis.com/the-qu...literary-form/

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    here are 2 perspectives of the history of the Arabic language and the role played by Quranic Arabic.



                    Quranic Arabic sets its own standard.
                    Not only is it Unique as a literary genre, it is also unique in its use of language/words

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      for those who might be interested....

                      here is a wiki-link to the Poetry of Rumi
                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masnavi

                      Persian (Farsi, Dari, Tajik...) is an Indo-European language. here is a history....

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        And "unique, non-standard" koranic Arabic is another way of saying and admitting that koranic Arabic is an anomalous, non-standard, aberrant and deviant form of the language, therefore it is uniquely flawed and fallacious in the "genre" it finds itself in.

                        As muslim exegetes and scholars like Ebrahim on-Nazzam, Hesham b. 'Amr pl-Fuwati (d. ca. 218/833), 'Abbad b. Solayman (d. ca. 250/864) and MAHMUD AZ-ZAMAKHSHARI all concur, the Koran's language is faulty and inconsistent, "full of aberrations" and irregularities from the standard and normal forms of Arabic.

                        NOTHING unique at all about it, just an irregular and faulty language by the exegetes' own standards.

                        And muslims, scholars and commentators all rushed and "strove to find explanations and justifications" for these inconsistencies.

                        And also being "unique in its use of language/words" is just another one of those feeble and weak explanations and lame excuse offered by a propogandist like the one below..


                        Originally posted by siam View Post
                        here are 2 perspectives of the history of the Arabic language and the role played by Quranic Arabic.



                        Quranic Arabic sets its own standard.
                        Not only is it Unique as a literary genre, it is also unique in its use of language/words

                        in the genre of its time and era.



                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by siam View Post
                          here are 2 perspectives of the history of the Arabic language and the role played by Quranic Arabic.



                          Quranic Arabic sets its own standard.
                          Not only is it Unique as a literary genre, it is also unique in its use of language/words

                          Do they explain why the qur'an used words from other languages rather than their Arabic equivalent if Arabic is the perfect language? IIRC, it states in the qur'an something like ten times that Allah specifically chose Arabic as the language for the text.

                          For example, from the third ayah of surah 43:

                          Indeed, We have made it an Arabic Qur’ān that you might understand.


                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Surah 43: 3 --- (also see 43:2), The Prophet (pbuh) was sent to the Arab (speaking) people therefore the message is naturally in Arabic. The words "that you might understand" make clear, that the purpose of the Arabic Quran is so the message can be clearly understood by its audience. (Which are Arab speaking) ...That is what verses 43:2 and 3 mean.
                            (Verse 43:4 refers to the "preserved tablet, Mother of the book...etc....if you are interested in this topic...we can discuss....)

                            English is an Indo-European language with many/most words derived from Sanskrit/Persian(Avestan)--the older languages from which other, younger Indo-European languages emerged....English, in turn, influenced other non-Indo-European languages in the Modern era. This is because the purpose of language is communication. If a language can no longer communicate---it is dead, useless. All used languages go through changes with a few exceptions...such as the sacred languages of Vedic Sanskrit, Hebrew Torah, Arabic Quran....etc.....These have meaning and use in their original state and therefore continue as is.
                            The purpose of the language used in the Quran is to communicate ideas, principles, laws, ethico-moral paradigms, economic and social "systems"...etc....and its primary audience are Arab-speakers....who may or may not have some knowledge of other languages of the area such as Aramaic, Hebrew, Persian...etc. Therefore, the Quranic Arabic is the perfect "language" for its audience.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Dan

                              It is important to establish genre if one is attempting an analysis. A thorough analysis is important if one attempts replication....a haiku is not a sonnet...If one is attempting to reproduce a haiku, one cannot use the tools and literary rules of a sonnet.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by siam View Post
                                Surah 43: 3 --- (also see 43:2), The Prophet (pbuh) was sent to the Arab (speaking) people therefore the message is naturally in Arabic. The words "that you might understand" make clear, that the purpose of the Arabic Quran is so the message can be clearly understood by its audience. (Which are Arab speaking) ...That is what verses 43:2 and 3 mean.
                                (Verse 43:4 refers to the "preserved tablet, Mother of the book...etc....if you are interested in this topic...we can discuss....)

                                English is an Indo-European language with many/most words derived from Sanskrit/Persian(Avestan)--the older languages from which other, younger Indo-European languages emerged....English, in turn, influenced other non-Indo-European languages in the Modern era. This is because the purpose of language is communication. If a language can no longer communicate---it is dead, useless. All used languages go through changes with a few exceptions...such as the sacred languages of Vedic Sanskrit, Hebrew Torah, Arabic Quran....etc.....These have meaning and use in their original state and therefore continue as is.
                                The purpose of the language used in the Quran is to communicate ideas, principles, laws, ethico-moral paradigms, economic and social "systems"...etc....and its primary audience are Arab-speakers....who may or may not have some knowledge of other languages of the area such as Aramaic, Hebrew, Persian...etc. Therefore, the Quranic Arabic is the perfect "language" for its audience.
                                Which dances around and does not address the question of why the qur'an used words from other languages rather than their Arabic equivalent if Arabic is the perfect language. IIRC, it states in the qur'an something like ten times that Allah specifically chose Arabic as the language for the text.

                                For example, from the third ayah of surah 43:

                                Indeed, We have made it an Arabic Qur’ān that you might understand.


                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                                Comment

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