Originally posted by siam
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This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to Islam. This forum is generally for theists only, and is not the area for debate between atheists and theists. Non-theist may not post here without first obtaining permission from the moderator of this forum. Granting of such permission is subject to Moderator discretion - and may be revoked if the Moderator feels that the poster is not keeping with the spirit of the World Religions Department.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
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I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by siam View Post
Truth---The Indian Vedas say "Truth is one, people call it by different names"---I think we can both agree---since neither you nor I have met God---that only God can decide what is "Truth".....and that will be after we are dead...so in our existence now---we can choose to leave judgements to God and instead work to please God, and better ourselves and our world. The alternative is to judge others harshly which can lead to division that can enhance hate which can morph into destruction---such an outcome is bad for everyone.
People of the Book---Yes, correct. God is most merciful, most compassionate, and most just. If Christians are OK with a harsh, unforgiving, unjust concept of God---that is fine by me---its not my religion---its yours.
Christian doctrines make no sense to me. Perhaps that is why God allowed for diversity? Islam gives me the "way"/path to worship One God in a form that I can understand and agree with.
Christians have gained benefits from polytheists---such as the use of zero and mathematics from the Indian religion, philosophy from the Greeks...etc...much of it filtered through from Islam/Muslims. Such co-operation for mutual benefit can still continue....?....
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Originally posted by siam View Post
better way?....such as?Mat 22:34 But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together.
Mat 22:35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him.
Mat 22:36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”
Mat 22:37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the great and first commandment.
Mat 22:39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
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And islamic doctrines or claims & postulates make no sense to me and many, many people. Thats why many muslims have abandoned and left islam by the thousands - despite islamic anti-apostasy laws and capital punishments.
For example when the Koran says "in the name of Allah, the compassionate and merciful", immediately sura 112/4 denies any comprehensible meaning about compassion and mercy in ways that normal people can understand and appreciate the terms!
"There is nothing like unto Him / Allah..". 112/4 claims. So all the names of Allah, like the 99 names in the koran are really ALL MEANINGLESS Sounds only.
So, is your Allah truly merciful etc? Nobody really knows. So why use those terms at all? They are just meaningless SOUNDS, with no meaning. The Koran forbids any meaning humanly comprehensible to be equated with those words and any of God's 99 names.
No wonder Muslims are quitting and abandoning Islam at the rate faster than at any other time over the last decade!
Thats good news..!
Originally posted by siam View Post
Truth---The Indian Vedas say "Truth is one, people call it by different names"---I think we can both agree---since neither you nor I have met God---that only God can decide what is "Truth".....and that will be after we are dead...so in our existence now---we can choose to leave judgements to God and instead work to please God, and better ourselves and our world. The alternative is to judge others harshly which can lead to division that can enhance hate which can morph into destruction---such an outcome is bad for everyone.
People of the Book---Yes, correct. God is most merciful, most compassionate, and most just. If Christians are OK with a harsh, unforgiving, unjust concept of God---that is fine by me---its not my religion---its yours.
Christianity does have the building blocks within it to be more forgiving and compassionate---If I am not wrong---the sacrifice wiped off the sins of all humanity? If so---an interpretation that allows for good people to go to heaven is still possible.....?....
Christian doctrines make no sense to me. Perhaps that is why God allowed for diversity? Islam gives me the "way"/path to worship One God in a form that I can understand and agree with.
Christians have gained benefits from polytheists---such as the use of zero and mathematics from the Indian religion, philosophy from the Greeks...etc...much of it filtered through from Islam/Muslims. Such co-operation for mutual benefit can still continue....?....
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostAnd we are explicitly told to love our neighbors as we would ourselves (Leviticus 19:18; Mark 12:31) and while doing so is an outward expression of our faith, it is not itself the way to salvation.
It is my understanding that the statement "God is Love" is how Christians perceive/reflect a core value of their religion? The Quran points to the highest human spirituality as Beautiful actions (Excellence) for God (Ihsan), so, for Muslims, one might say, God is Beautiful/Excellent would be an appropriate statement. This concept of Beauty encompasses all human actions from social relationships, philosophy, architecture, landscape, and all other human endeavors.
It is through excellence/beauty that one expresses Taqwa (love of God).
Christians and Muslim may have a different perspective on salvation---but neither of us will know until we are dead, so arguing about it provides no merit?
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThe Islam God is the unforgiving harsh one. You are judged on your deeds. The bible is clear that no one is without sin, and all of our good works are nothing more than filthy rags compared to God's perfection. So rather than condemning you for not being able to reach that perfection, God sent us his son, Jesus to be that perfection. He paid the price we owe for being sinners. And if we accept him as our Lord and Savior, then his righteousness is credited to our account. All of our sins are wiped away as if they never happened. Past, present and future. So just by loving God and accepting his son's sacrifice ANYONE can get into heaven. Isn't that better than having to prove that you are good enough to get into heaven like you do in Islam? Just by praying to God and asking him to save you and accepting Jesus' sacrifice for YOU, you are saved. Then you give your loyalty and love to God and follow him as best as you can, but even if you mess up, you are still saved.
We are sinners. God can only allow perfection into heaven. Jesus was perfect and died on the cross to pay the price we need to pay. Then he rose from the dead to show how we too will rise from the dead and go to heaven. Think of your sins as creating a debt that must be paid. Jesus paid it for you. Now you can get his righteousness and perfection credited to you. Just by accepting the free gift.
of course. But you realize of course that Islam actually CAME from Christianity right? It is basically a cult of Christianity. Mohammad took bits and pieces of unorthodox Christianity (that is why the Koran is filled with erroneous ideas about Christians) and cobbled together a new religion. It didn't even exit until the 7th century AD. Most of the stuff you mention above came about long before Islam was around.
Humanity is meant to be a work-in-progress and our existence on Earth is a place of learning, growing and being tested. That is why we progress from being children to being adults. Both trials and blessings that God sends our way are tests.
To me, Islamic paradigm matches the reality as I see it---so it makes sense to me. I have never understood the Christian paradigm---it has never made sense to me and does not match up to the reality as I see it.
To the Muslim, Islam came from God. It is the way/path of Prophet Adam. There are a lot of similarities between Judaism and Islam---more so than Christianity---but also, as an Easterner, I find similarities/complementarities between the Eastern wisdom teachings and the Quranic wisdom.
Most Christians are too adversarial to have interesting conversations on exploring the deeper philosophical and ethico-moral aspects of our respective religions......I have generally had more interesting conversations with Atheists....
To learn/gain knowledge is an important responsibility encouraged by both the Prophet and the Quran. So, Muslims have been happy to incorporate and advance on knowledge wherever it may be found---since all knowledge is from God. Therefore even if it was knowledge that exited before Islam, it was not a problem for Muslim thinkers, researchers, philosophers, polymaths....
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Originally posted by siam View Post
Christians are very preoccupied with the concept of what God has done for humanity---Muslims are very concerned about what humanity can do for God. Both positions can be seen as complementary rather than divisive.
It is my understanding that the statement "God is Love" is how Christians perceive/reflect a core value of their religion? The Quran points to the highest human spirituality as Beautiful actions (Excellence) for God (Ihsan), so, for Muslims, one might say, God is Beautiful/Excellent would be an appropriate statement. This concept of Beauty encompasses all human actions from social relationships, philosophy, architecture, landscape, and all other human endeavors.
It is through excellence/beauty that one expresses Taqwa (love of God).
Christians and Muslim may have a different perspective on salvation---but neither of us will know until we are dead, so arguing about it provides no merit?
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Originally posted by siam View Post
Being Judged on our deeds and not our self-assigned labels seems fair and just to me. In Islam all humanity is born muslim---(Fitra--inherent goodness). We may assign labels to ourselves---but God knows if we have remained muslim or have rebelled--regardless of our labels.
Humanity is meant to be a work-in-progress and our existence on Earth is a place of learning, growing and being tested. That is why we progress from being children to being adults. Both trials and blessings that God sends our way are tests.
To me, Islamic paradigm matches the reality as I see it---so it makes sense to me. I have never understood the Christian paradigm---it has never made sense to me and does not match up to the reality as I see it.
To the Muslim, Islam came from God. It is the way/path of Prophet Adam. There are a lot of similarities between Judaism and Islam---more so than Christianity---but also, as an Easterner, I find similarities/complementarities between the Eastern wisdom teachings and the Quranic wisdom.
Most Christians are too adversarial to have interesting conversations on exploring the deeper philosophical and ethico-moral aspects of our respective religions......I have generally had more interesting conversations with Atheists....
To learn/gain knowledge is an important responsibility encouraged by both the Prophet and the Quran. So, Muslims have been happy to incorporate and advance on knowledge wherever it may be found---since all knowledge is from God. Therefore even if it was knowledge that exited before Islam, it was not a problem for Muslim thinkers, researchers, philosophers, polymaths....
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“Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."
Surah 8/12
“Finger-tips” is the textual euphemism for “hands” in Arabic. So CHOP OFF the unbelieving non-Muslims heads and hands.
“So, Muslim believers, when you meet in battle those who disbelieve (the non-Muslims), STRIKE OFF THEIR HEADS.”
Surah 47/4
“KILL from among the people of the Book (Christians and Jews) who DO NOT BELIEVE in Allah and the Last Day, who do not HOLD unlawful what Allah and his messenger have declared to be unlawful and DO NO SUBSCRIBE (ie. Follow & believe) to the true faith (ie Islam)..”
Surah 9/29.
Allah orders that the people of the Book here – Christians and Jews, MUST BE KILLED BY MUSLIMS JUST for NOT Believing in Islam and Muhamed. NOT because these Christians etc were fighting physical warfare with the Muslims at all!
Mere unbelief in Islam is good reason and cause enough for the murder and attacks on non-Muslims according to sura 9/29, among other Koranic verses.
Islam – a religion of peace? Nah, fat hope & mere more cheap propaganda from the islamist missionaries – worthless!
Whether you assent or not is totally irrelevant and unimportant, Siam. The Koran is unmistakable in commanding and enjoining Muslims to violence and hate speech against the people of the Book even.
You just cannot refute the above verses from your own scripture the Koran!
“The Jews say ‘Ezra is the son of Allah,’ while Christians say that ‘the Messiah/Christ is the Son of Allah’, these are only words that they speak. They merely imitate the words of the infidels of old. ALLAH CURSE THEM. How deluded they are..”
Surah 9/30.
Surah 9/30 is pure and unprovoked Islamic hate speech from your Koran, proof of bigotry and intolerance demanded by Allah and Mohamed from the Muslims against Christians and Jews. Your consent or not is irrelevant to the Koran's hate speech and violence.
Learn to ADMIT IT, Siam!
Originally posted by siam View Post
That is your assumption---one I do not assent to.
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Originally posted by siam View Post
Christians are very preoccupied with the concept of what God has done for humanity---Muslims are very concerned about what humanity can do for God.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Are you actually trying to tell me the holy writ of Islam and the deeds/words/actions of the idealized and perfect exemplar for all Muslims for all time do not mandate you to wage jihad against non Muslims who reject the teachings of Islam? ??
Is so one would be justified in concluding you are either:
[a] Not a Muslim, or
[b] Totally ignorant of the 1500 years of Islamic holy writ, history, teachings, and juristic rulings. or
[c] Just being a good little Muslim and employing the standard far less than candid response when the situation dictates one not be totally honest.
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Originally posted by Trucker View Post
Actually that [your above quote] is your diversion.
Are you actually trying to tell me the holy writ of Islam and the deeds/words/actions of the idealized and perfect exemplar for all Muslims for all time do not mandate you to wage jihad against non Muslims who reject the teachings of Islam? ??
Is so one would be justified in concluding you are either:
[a] Not a Muslim, or
[b] Totally ignorant of the 1500 years of Islamic holy writ, history, teachings, and juristic rulings. or
[c] Just being a good little Muslim and employing the standard far less than candid response when the situation dictates one not be totally honest.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Trucker View Post
Try this::.
Mat 22:34 But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together.
Mat 22:35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him.
Mat 22:36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”
Mat 22:37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the great and first commandment.
Mat 22:39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."
Something you don't understand?
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