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Did Jesus die and rise from the dead?

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  • #76
    Originally posted by siam View Post
    Interesting questions----appreciate it.


    In the name of God, most compassionate, most merciful----This phrase is repeated in the Quran many times, and also used by Muslims in everyday life. This aspect/attribute of God permeates all aspects of life and is self-evident/observable. Our life and its sustenance come from God regardless of how good or bad we are. This is "grace"(unmerited mercy)--God's mercy and compassion are explained by the Prophet (pbuh) in this way---
    (ahadith)
    Salman al-Farisi reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Verily, on the day Allah created the heavens and the earth, He created one hundred parts of mercy. Each part can fill what is between the heavens and the earth. He made one part of mercy for the earth, from which a mother has compassion for her child, animals and birds have compassion for each other. On the Day of Resurrection, He will perfect this mercy.”


    ...Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) says: “When Allah created the creatures, He wrote in the Book, which is with Him over His Throne: ‘Verily, My Mercy prevailed over My Wrath.’”
    ...

    Prophet Muhammad says: “Allah created mercy in one hundred parts and He retained with Him ninety-nine parts, and He has sent down upon the earth one part, and it is because of this one part that there is mutual love among the creation so much so that the animal lifts up its hoof from its young one, fearing that it might harm it.” So we must be merciful, remember this Name of God and contemplate more to realize the consequences of It.

    https://explore-islam.com/the-99-nam...rely-merciful/

    Therefore, compassion and mercy are a natural part of Justice. Islamic concepts often come in groups of 3 (which is ironic---God is one, but Islamic ethico-moral principles can be expressed in "trinities") This is because Balance (Qadr) is an underlying idea on which these principles rest. (Balance leads to Peace---and the purpose of Islam is to lead to peace). Therefore, the starting point or anchor of all principles begins with Tawheed (Unity) which is needed to balance 2 concepts (Justice and Compassion/Mercy). It is through the concept of Tawheed (Unity) that the idea of Equality--(all humanity is of equivalent value)--is understood. (note:--Equality does not mean "same"). Humanity is entitled to Justice and Humanity is entitled to compassion/mercy. However, as you have noted---compassion and mercy without Justice becomes unfair/imbalanced and Justice without compassion and mercy becomes harsh/imbalanced. Both justice and mercy must balance each other if they are to lead to Peace.

    Unconditional Mercy without Justice --is problematic...in the context of human Justice (Justice = recompense for the harm done so as to repair the relationship in order to advance peace) The reason for this is because all humanity is Equal. This equality is balanced by rights vs obligations. The obligation to repent rests with the perpetrator (one who caused injury) ---the right to give mercy or require recompense rests with victim/or family (one who received injury). Repentance is a path to " righting the wrong". Why? --because Sincere repentance is the consequence of humility---an attitude/self-reflection required to self-criticize and admit mistakes. Forgiveness is/can be a consequence of sincere repentance. (However, the right to forgive belongs to the injured party). The goal of punishment is not about creating more harm/injury---it is about rights and obligations. When an injured party demands recompense-----the one who caused the injury is obliged to endure those demands/burdens because the goal/purpose of Justice is not punishment--but Peace. In the case of the perpetrator not being repentant---the party that received harm/injury retains the right to forgive or demand recompense. In this case, the demand for recompense may encourage the perpetrator towards repentance---or perhaps forgiveness might be the catalyst towards repentance...In either case, the victims/or family have no obligation to reform the perpetrator. The victims/or family have a right to Justice....both in this life and in Divine Judgement.

    Divine Justice is different from Justice between humans.----Divine Justice is NOT between equals. God is all powerful. Humans are powerless. All rights belong to God---God can judge humans but humans have no right to judge other humans (or God). It is in this context that God has taken upon himself the attributes of Compassion and Mercy so that the scales of Divine Justice weigh more towards Mercy rather than punishment. Therefore all humanity is given the time (our life-span) to repent and ask forgiveness. (Grace/unmerited mercy) The sincerity of our repentance is something only God can Judge. At the end of our life-time, We exhaust our opportunity for repentance.

    A murderer/killer repents and asks for forgiveness from the victims family--the family refuses and demands recompense---as is their right---the perpetrator has an obligation to endure those demands. However, as I explained previously---the injury is not just to the human victims/family---In Islam, moral injury also inflicts harm on the human soul and is also a breach of contract (with God) of the duty/obligation of the Trust/Trusteeship placed on humanity. Divine Justice might take all these factors into consideration (it is not for humans to decide---this right belongs to God alone.) Divine Justice is much more encompassing and expansive than Human Justice. The limitations of human justice make it an unfit model for understanding Divine Justice. However, Divine Justice will be fair---this is a mercy and grace promised by God to humanity.
    Thanks for that explanation. But you still never answered my questions.

    Where does the weighing of deeds come into the picture if Allah forgives any who ask?

    Let's imaging you are standing before Allah at the Judgement. You have done more evil than good in your life. But you asked God to forgive you. Are your deeds still weighed in the Judgment?

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post

      Thanks for that explanation. But you still never answered my questions.

      Where does the weighing of deeds come into the picture if Allah forgives any who ask?

      Let's imaging you are standing before Allah at the Judgement. You have done more evil than good in your life. But you asked God to forgive you. Are your deeds still weighed in the Judgment?
      I am not a scholar--so this explanation is how I understand it....(from Quran)
      Islam is a religion of Law---therefore Divine Judgement is a courtroom. A courtroom requires a Judge to look at evidence before pronouncing Judgement. Evidence such as documents/records, witnesses...and such.
      Who/what is being Judged?---- In Islam, a human is a "trinity"---it consists of body, soul, spirit. Intentions and actions on earth are done by the "human" (specifically body and soul) At Judgement day, the thing/person being judged is the soul.
      Angels record every action and intention during our lifetime. --This record is presented as documentary evidence. Our "body" stands as witness to all our actions/deeds and testifies in court.
      At Judgment day---since we are already dead, there is no room for repentance---its too late. Excuses such as "devil made me do it", following tradition/others...etc, will not work because God gave us the right/power of free-will, the intelligence to figure out right/wrong, Guidance, as well as an inherent instinct/nature that bends towards goodness.
      Nevertheless, if we have repented and reformed during our lifetime and asked God for forgiveness---God is most compassionate, most merciful.
      Repentance/reform reduces the weight of our bad deeds and increases the weight of our good deeds. Some say it may erase our bad deeds.....
      Regardless of the details---Divine forgiveness/mercy is God's right.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        Y'all seem to think you can "buy" your way into heaven by simply saying the right things and following the rules. News flash. You're going to fail. Being human, in spite of the best intentions, people WILL screw up from time to time (at the very least). Hence, nobody can succeed without God extending his mercy through Christ
        Yes--Humans are a work-in-progress. That is how God created us. Our life on Earth, with its trials and blessings, is a means to find our way to God.
        God is mot compassionate and most merciful and forgives whomever it chooses.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by siam View Post

          Yes--Humans are a work-in-progress. That is how God created us. Our life on Earth, with its trials and blessings, is a means to find our way to God.
          God is mot compassionate and most merciful and forgives whomever it chooses.
          He forgives those who sincerely ask to be forgiven.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by siam View Post

            I am not a scholar--so this explanation is how I understand it....(from Quran)
            Islam is a religion of Law---therefore Divine Judgement is a courtroom. A courtroom requires a Judge to look at evidence before pronouncing Judgement. Evidence such as documents/records, witnesses...and such.
            Who/what is being Judged?---- In Islam, a human is a "trinity"---it consists of body, soul, spirit. Intentions and actions on earth are done by the "human" (specifically body and soul) At Judgement day, the thing/person being judged is the soul.
            Angels record every action and intention during our lifetime. --This record is presented as documentary evidence. Our "body" stands as witness to all our actions/deeds and testifies in court.
            At Judgment day---since we are already dead, there is no room for repentance---its too late. Excuses such as "devil made me do it", following tradition/others...etc, will not work because God gave us the right/power of free-will, the intelligence to figure out right/wrong, Guidance, as well as an inherent instinct/nature that bends towards goodness.
            Nevertheless, if we have repented and reformed during our lifetime and asked God for forgiveness---God is most compassionate, most merciful.
            Repentance/reform reduces the weight of our bad deeds and increases the weight of our good deeds. Some say it may erase our bad deeds.....
            Regardless of the details---Divine forgiveness/mercy is God's right.
            OK thanks for that.

            Basically it is the same in Christianity. We will stand before God on judgement day. Everyone. We will be judged on our sins and deeds. For those who are not Christians, the bible says:

            Romans 2:
            2 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

            [those under the law are the Jews/Hebrews. Who have the Law given by Moses. They will be judged by that Law]

            But for those of us who have Jesus as our Lord and Savior, this is what happens:

            Romans 3: 21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

            [We are credited Christ's Righteousness in place of our own Sinfullness]

            Romans 5:6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
            [We are justified, made righteous by Christ's death on the cross. He paid the demands of Justice so that we could have God's mercy and grace]

            So God will not judge us for our sins, because they are all forgiven. But he will judge us for rewards. Our deeds will determine our rewards in heaven, whether we get crowns, and authority, etc.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              He forgives those who sincerely ask to be forgiven.
              Yes, u are right....

              What I say next might complicate the issue...but there is also another aspect....
              There are man-made disasters and suffering. Such circumstances that cause harm/injury, require Justice....
              ...but... what of the harm/injury from "natural"/non-man-made causes? Does this not require Justice? From the Islamic perspective---this is an aspect that needs consideration during Divine Judgement.
              So, to repent and ask for forgiveness is requisite upon the exercise of one's free-will in intentions/actions that cause harm/injury.
              victims of harm/injury from man-made/natural disasters (suffering on earth) are entitled to considerations of compassion and mercy...that is why God has the right to forgive whomever it chooses.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                OK thanks for that.

                Basically it is the same in Christianity. We will stand before God on judgement day. Everyone. We will be judged on our sins and deeds. For those who are not Christians, the bible says:

                Romans 2:
                2 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

                [those under the law are the Jews/Hebrews. Who have the Law given by Moses. They will be judged by that Law]

                But for those of us who have Jesus as our Lord and Savior, this is what happens:

                Romans 3: 21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

                [We are credited Christ's Righteousness in place of our own Sinfullness]

                Romans 5:6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
                [We are justified, made righteous by Christ's death on the cross. He paid the demands of Justice so that we could have God's mercy and grace]

                So God will not judge us for our sins, because they are all forgiven. But he will judge us for rewards. Our deeds will determine our rewards in heaven, whether we get crowns, and authority, etc.
                interesting...

                It seems there are surprising common intersections in some of our concepts.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by siam View Post

                  interesting...

                  It seems there are surprising common intersections in some of our concepts.
                  But also seriously irreconcilable differences!

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by siam View Post

                    interesting...

                    It seems there are surprising common intersections in some of our concepts.
                    Hardly a surprise given Muhammad's reliance on Judaism and, chiefly heretical or unorthodox, Christian groups including Nestorians.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      And u are not quite right.

                      Your god/Allah has already made some people for heaven and some for hell. Islamic sources say this is all pre-determined.

                      Thats why he does not forgive some souls and people, because he has pre-determined them to go to hell and their actions likewise - the hellish kind.

                      Only those who martyr or kill themselves by fighting and committing violence for islam will get into the islamic paradise. That's the only way to get around Allah's fate for everyone.

                      This is according to islamic tenets and doctrines.


                      Originally posted by siam View Post

                      Yes, u are right....

                      What I say next might complicate the issue...but there is also another aspect....
                      There are man-made disasters and suffering. Such circumstances that cause harm/injury, require Justice....
                      ...but... what of the harm/injury from "natural"/non-man-made causes? Does this not require Justice? From the Islamic perspective---this is an aspect that needs consideration during Divine Judgement.
                      So, to repent and ask for forgiveness is requisite upon the exercise of one's free-will in intentions/actions that cause harm/injury.
                      victims of harm/injury from man-made/natural disasters (suffering on earth) are entitled to considerations of compassion and mercy...that is why God has the right to forgive whomever it chooses.

                      Comment


                      • #86


                        On the other hand, you will never find such fatalistic determinism taught by Jesus Christ or in the Gospel. Like that in Koran 4/88,89 and in the hadith showed above. Allah already determined persons and souls for hell, and their behaviour likewise.

                        On the other hand, the real Gospel says : in John 3:16-18 (ESV) "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

                        "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

                        "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

                        Can you show any ayat/verse that is comparable to the above Gospel verse that reveals the true and genuine love of God from the Koran, siam?

                        Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                        And u are not quite right.

                        Your god/Allah has already made some people for heaven and some for hell. Islamic sources say this is all pre-determined.

                        Thats why he does not forgive some souls and people, because he has pre-determined them to go to hell and their actions likewise - the hellish kind.

                        Only those who martyr or kill themselves by fighting and committing violence for islam will get into the islamic paradise. That's the only way to get around Allah's fate for everyone.

                        This is according to islamic tenets and doctrines.



                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Deafening silence as usual and always from intrepid islam preacher and dawagandist, siam.

                          By cherry-picking the answers, siam proves to be a narrow minded and selective reader, unable and refusing to engage with others who don't share views of peace, faith, salvation and revelation with him/her!

                          And that is pathetic and laughable. Even until now there are no meaningful or intelligent answers or interaction with honest questions put to siam. Is thst the height of knowledge or enquiry? LOL..

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