Announcement

Collapse

Islam Guidelines

Theists only.

This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to Islam. This forum is generally for theists only, and is not the area for debate between atheists and theists. Non-theist may not post here without first obtaining permission from the moderator of this forum. Granting of such permission is subject to Moderator discretion - and may be revoked if the Moderator feels that the poster is not keeping with the spirit of the World Religions Department.



Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Did Jesus die and rise from the dead?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Originally posted by siam View Post

    Forgiven---From the Islamic perspective---human beings are forgiven when they ask for forgiveness. Prophet Adam was forgiven. God is most compassionate, most merciful.
    Such a proposition suits me---I can understand it and give assent to it.
    So if you are forgiven then what is the whole purpose of weighing your good deeds against your bad ones?

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post

      So if you are forgiven then what is the whole purpose of weighing your good deeds against your bad ones?
      Justice.

      Forgiveness is a consequence of sincere repentance. Sincere repentance is the consequence of humility---an attitude/self-reflection required to self-criticize and admit mistakes.
      A person with such an attitude is a "Shakir"---one who is grateful. The opposite of such a person---One who is arrogant, egoic and ungrateful is a "Kafir"---though this term is translated as "unbeliever", it does not have the same connotations as it would in Christianity which emphasizes faith---Islam emphasizes actions and intentions. The reason for such an emphasis is because the Quran is concerned with the "soul" and what today is referred to as "moral injury". All our bad actions cause injury to the soul---and repentance is the way to heal the trauma of "moral injury". Those who refuse to repent because of arrogance/pride face the consequences of the injury caused to others and to their own souls. Because we are Trustees of God---there is also the matter of a breach of contract with God from our unjust/harmful intentions and actions. These are some factors that need considering in Divine Justice.

      Comment


      • #63

        Try focusing on the Koranic verses given to you above, on Allah's MISGUIDANCE and Misleading people and souls astray, first.

        Like, from sura 4/88. FIVE established and well-known koran translators all agree on Allah's intentionally sending people and souls ASTRAY into destruction and to PERISH - in line WITH HIS WILL.

        Don't tell us that you can give a better (more taqiyyist) rendering of sura 4/88 than them? LOL...!

        It is downright ridiculous and nonsensical that Muslims can call Allah "arrahman, arrahim" - "merciful & compassionate" because he sends the very same people and souls TO PERISH IN HELL at the same time.

        You want to help non-muslims "understand islam better", siam? Then explain the contradiction above.. because sura 4/88 makes no sense to a merciful deity.
        Do you want to guide those who are sent astray by GOD? Whomever GOD sends astray, you can never find a way to guide them.
        - R. Khalifa version

        Seek ye to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray ? He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him thou (O MUhammad) canst not find a road.
        - Pickthall version

        Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to ERR ? And whomsoever Allah causes to ERR, you shall by no means find a way for him.
        - Shakir version
        Desire ye to guide him whom ALLAH has caused to perish ? And for him whom ALLAH causes to perish thou shalt NOT FIND a way.
        - Sher Ali version

        Would ye guide those whom God hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom God hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.
        - Yusuf Ali version

        Therefore, If Allah has made that soul for Hell & to perish in hell, no amount of asking for forgiveness from Allah for that person will be successful nor make ANY DIFFERENCE.

        OR, do you mean that God/Allah has given to rogue06 "the path of Christianity" as a means of destruction - because your Allah is "most compassionate, most merciful"??

        You just can't have it both ways...LOL!




        Originally posted by siam View Post

        Justice.

        Forgiveness is a consequence of sincere repentance. Sincere repentance is the consequence of humility---an attitude/self-reflection required to self-criticize and admit mistakes.
        A person with such an attitude is a "Shakir"---one who is grateful. The opposite of such a person---One who is arrogant, egoic and ungrateful is a "Kafir"---though this term is translated as "unbeliever", it does not have the same connotations as it would in Christianity which emphasizes faith---Islam emphasizes actions and intentions. The reason for such an emphasis is because the Quran is concerned with the "soul" and what today is referred to as "moral injury". All our bad actions cause injury to the soul---and repentance is the way to heal the trauma of "moral injury". Those who refuse to repent because of arrogance/pride face the consequences of the injury caused to others and to their own souls. Because we are Trustees of God---there is also the matter of a breach of contract with God from our unjust/harmful intentions and actions. These are some factors that need considering in Divine Justice.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by siam View Post

          Justice.

          Forgiveness is a consequence of sincere repentance. Sincere repentance is the consequence of humility---an attitude/self-reflection required to self-criticize and admit mistakes.
          A person with such an attitude is a "Shakir"---one who is grateful. The opposite of such a person---One who is arrogant, egoic and ungrateful is a "Kafir"---though this term is translated as "unbeliever", it does not have the same connotations as it would in Christianity which emphasizes faith---Islam emphasizes actions and intentions. The reason for such an emphasis is because the Quran is concerned with the "soul" and what today is referred to as "moral injury". All our bad actions cause injury to the soul---and repentance is the way to heal the trauma of "moral injury". Those who refuse to repent because of arrogance/pride face the consequences of the injury caused to others and to their own souls. Because we are Trustees of God---there is also the matter of a breach of contract with God from our unjust/harmful intentions and actions. These are some factors that need considering in Divine Justice.
          While those who have been saved tend to behave in a different manner than before, it is not the things they do now or before that saved them -- with the exception of asking for forgiveness and accepting Christ.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by siam View Post

            Justice.

            Forgiveness is a consequence of sincere repentance. Sincere repentance is the consequence of humility---an attitude/self-reflection required to self-criticize and admit mistakes.
            A person with such an attitude is a "Shakir"---one who is grateful. The opposite of such a person---One who is arrogant, egoic and ungrateful is a "Kafir"---though this term is translated as "unbeliever", it does not have the same connotations as it would in Christianity which emphasizes faith---Islam emphasizes actions and intentions. The reason for such an emphasis is because the Quran is concerned with the "soul" and what today is referred to as "moral injury". All our bad actions cause injury to the soul---and repentance is the way to heal the trauma of "moral injury". Those who refuse to repent because of arrogance/pride face the consequences of the injury caused to others and to their own souls. Because we are Trustees of God---there is also the matter of a breach of contract with God from our unjust/harmful intentions and actions. These are some factors that need considering in Divine Justice.
            There is no justice if you are just forgiven. Who pays the penalty of your sin? That's mercy, but it is not justice. Justice demands that sins be punished. In Christianity, Jesus paid the penalties of all of our sins. So we have mercy and God has justice.

            But my question was more basic. If you are just forgiven, then why would God need to even weigh your deeds? It seems contradictory. Or is the weighing of deeds only for those who were not forgiven?

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              While those who have been saved tend to behave in a different manner than before, it is not the things they do now or before that saved them -- with the exception of asking for forgiveness and accepting Christ.
              That is the Christian perspective.
              Islam has a different paradigm.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                There is no justice if you are just forgiven. Who pays the penalty of your sin? That's mercy, but it is not justice. Justice demands that sins be punished. In Christianity, Jesus paid the penalties of all of our sins. So we have mercy and God has justice.

                But my question was more basic. If you are just forgiven, then why would God need to even weigh your deeds? It seems contradictory. Or is the weighing of deeds only for those who were not forgiven?
                Maybe for Christians, Justice might be all about harsh punishment and nothing else.

                Islam is a religion of Law---In Islam, Justice is about recompense for the harm done so as to repair the relationship in order to advance peace. Between man and man---Justice/law---(tempered with compassion and mercy) is about reconciliation for peaceful resolution. The right to forgive or demand compensation rests with the person (or family) who has been wronged. The obligation to repent is the duty of the perpetrator. Between man and God---the right to forgive or extract compensation is for God alone---the obligation to repent is a duty and blessing given to humanity.

                In Islam there is no original sin---humanity is born with an inherent nature/inclination which is understood in the concept of Fitra (human nature). The premises that the Islamic paradigm is based on are different from that of Christianity.

                Why deeds are weighed?---There are many aspects to our human actions/intentions. When humans seek justice between men---it is necessarily based on actions---no one can know intent unless it is articulated/confessed to. Intent is rightly judged by God as only God knows the truth of our intentions.
                Our mistakes cannot be inherited or passed on to others. Each individual mistake belongs to the individual. However, humanity is not just individual but also communal. Even if a bad/evil action is committed by a few individuals---those who approve of it by giving vocal assent to it or by silently approving of bad/evil actions---are complicit to a degree. The right to judge intentions rests with God---because only God knows. This means that in the case of systemic oppression--those who stand by silently in approval, those that vocally express approval, and/or those who know of systemic oppression but choose to turn their eyes away---are all complicit to a degree. In an oppressive society (Hong Kong protests for example) not everyone has the luxury of vocalizing dissent and/or fight for equality/justice---but at the very least, we must not knowingly condone oppression in our hearts. (That is why "right belief" is so important)

                Forgiveness---When God chooses to forgive---it is forgiven. Its simple. But then, it is the simplicity of Islam that makes sense to me.
                Last edited by siam; 04-27-2021, 11:58 PM.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by siam View Post

                  Maybe for Christians, Justice might be all about harsh punishment and nothing else.

                  Islam is a religion of Law---In Islam, Justice is about recompense for the harm done so as to repair the relationship in order to advance peace. Between man and man---Justice/law---(tempered with compassion and mercy) is about reconciliation for peaceful resolution. The right to forgive or demand compensation rests with the person (or family) who has been wronged. The obligation to repent is the duty of the perpetrator. Between man and God---the right to forgive or extract compensation is for God alone---the obligation to repent is a duty and blessing given to humanity.
                  Again, you are talking about Mercy, not Justice. Forgiving someone is mercy. It is foregoing Justice and giving mercy to the offender instead. Justice is about making a wrong right or punishing the wrongdoer. That is why we have our "Justice System" that makes people pay for their crimes, but we also have mercy in our system, in paroles, and pardons. And you are saying that God can forgive you for sins you do against someone else? How would that be "justice?" - Say you kill someone and ask their family for forgiveness, they say "no" - but you can ask God to forgive you and shortcut the justice the family deserves? That isn't justice.


                  In Islam there is no original sin---humanity is born with an inherent nature/inclination which is understood in the concept of Fitra (human nature). The premises that the Islamic paradigm is based on are different from that of Christianity.

                  Why deeds are weighed?---There are many aspects to our human actions/intentions. When humans seek justice between men---it is necessarily based on actions---no one can know intent unless it is articulated/confessed to. Intent is rightly judged by God as only God knows the truth of our intentions.
                  Our mistakes cannot be inherited or passed on to others. Each individual mistake belongs to the individual. However, humanity is not just individual but also communal. Even if a bad/evil action is committed by a few individuals---those who approve of it by giving vocal assent to it or by silently approving of bad/evil actions---are complicit to a degree. The right to judge intentions rests with God---because only God knows. This means that in the case of systemic oppression--those who stand by silently in approval, those that vocally express approval, and/or those who know of systemic oppression but choose to turn their eyes away---are all complicit to a degree. In an oppressive society (Hong Kong protests for example) not everyone has the luxury of vocalizing dissent and/or fight for equality/justice---but at the very least, we must not knowingly condone oppression in our hearts. (That is why "right belief" is so important)

                  Forgiveness---When God chooses to forgive---it is forgiven. Its simple. But then, it is the simplicity of Islam that makes sense to me.
                  You still aren't getting it. Say you have done more evil than good in your life. But you ask God to forgive you. Are your deeds still weighed after you die? If you are forgiven, then there is no point in weighing your deeds. But if they are weighed you will end up as "evil" which would contradict God forgiving you.


                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Again, you are talking about Mercy, not Justice. Forgiving someone is mercy. It is foregoing Justice and giving mercy to the offender instead. Justice is about making a wrong right or punishing the wrongdoer. That is why we have our "Justice System" that makes people pay for their crimes, but we also have mercy in our system, in paroles, and pardons. And you are saying that God can forgive you for sins you do against someone else? How would that be "justice?" - Say you kill someone and ask their family for forgiveness, they say "no" - but you can ask God to forgive you and shortcut the justice the family deserves? That isn't justice.

                    You still aren't getting it. Say you have done more evil than good in your life. But you ask God to forgive you. Are your deeds still weighed after you die? If you are forgiven, then there is no point in weighing your deeds. But if they are weighed you will end up as "evil" which would contradict God forgiving you.
                    Interesting questions----appreciate it.


                    In the name of God, most compassionate, most merciful----This phrase is repeated in the Quran many times, and also used by Muslims in everyday life. This aspect/attribute of God permeates all aspects of life and is self-evident/observable. Our life and its sustenance come from God regardless of how good or bad we are. This is "grace"(unmerited mercy)--God's mercy and compassion are explained by the Prophet (pbuh) in this way---
                    (ahadith)
                    Salman al-Farisi reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Verily, on the day Allah created the heavens and the earth, He created one hundred parts of mercy. Each part can fill what is between the heavens and the earth. He made one part of mercy for the earth, from which a mother has compassion for her child, animals and birds have compassion for each other. On the Day of Resurrection, He will perfect this mercy.”


                    ...Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) says: “When Allah created the creatures, He wrote in the Book, which is with Him over His Throne: ‘Verily, My Mercy prevailed over My Wrath.’”
                    ...

                    Prophet Muhammad says: “Allah created mercy in one hundred parts and He retained with Him ninety-nine parts, and He has sent down upon the earth one part, and it is because of this one part that there is mutual love among the creation so much so that the animal lifts up its hoof from its young one, fearing that it might harm it.” So we must be merciful, remember this Name of God and contemplate more to realize the consequences of It.

                    https://explore-islam.com/the-99-nam...rely-merciful/

                    Therefore, compassion and mercy are a natural part of Justice. Islamic concepts often come in groups of 3 (which is ironic---God is one, but Islamic ethico-moral principles can be expressed in "trinities") This is because Balance (Qadr) is an underlying idea on which these principles rest. (Balance leads to Peace---and the purpose of Islam is to lead to peace). Therefore, the starting point or anchor of all principles begins with Tawheed (Unity) which is needed to balance 2 concepts (Justice and Compassion/Mercy). It is through the concept of Tawheed (Unity) that the idea of Equality--(all humanity is of equivalent value)--is understood. (note:--Equality does not mean "same"). Humanity is entitled to Justice and Humanity is entitled to compassion/mercy. However, as you have noted---compassion and mercy without Justice becomes unfair/imbalanced and Justice without compassion and mercy becomes harsh/imbalanced. Both justice and mercy must balance each other if they are to lead to Peace.

                    Unconditional Mercy without Justice --is problematic...in the context of human Justice (Justice = recompense for the harm done so as to repair the relationship in order to advance peace) The reason for this is because all humanity is Equal. This equality is balanced by rights vs obligations. The obligation to repent rests with the perpetrator (one who caused injury) ---the right to give mercy or require recompense rests with victim/or family (one who received injury). Repentance is a path to " righting the wrong". Why? --because Sincere repentance is the consequence of humility---an attitude/self-reflection required to self-criticize and admit mistakes. Forgiveness is/can be a consequence of sincere repentance. (However, the right to forgive belongs to the injured party). The goal of punishment is not about creating more harm/injury---it is about rights and obligations. When an injured party demands recompense-----the one who caused the injury is obliged to endure those demands/burdens because the goal/purpose of Justice is not punishment--but Peace. In the case of the perpetrator not being repentant---the party that received harm/injury retains the right to forgive or demand recompense. In this case, the demand for recompense may encourage the perpetrator towards repentance---or perhaps forgiveness might be the catalyst towards repentance...In either case, the victims/or family have no obligation to reform the perpetrator. The victims/or family have a right to Justice....both in this life and in Divine Judgement.

                    Divine Justice is different from Justice between humans.----Divine Justice is NOT between equals. God is all powerful. Humans are powerless. All rights belong to God---God can judge humans but humans have no right to judge other humans (or God). It is in this context that God has taken upon himself the attributes of Compassion and Mercy so that the scales of Divine Justice weigh more towards Mercy rather than punishment. Therefore all humanity is given the time (our life-span) to repent and ask forgiveness. (Grace/unmerited mercy) The sincerity of our repentance is something only God can Judge. At the end of our life-time, We exhaust our opportunity for repentance.

                    A murderer/killer repents and asks for forgiveness from the victims family--the family refuses and demands recompense---as is their right---the perpetrator has an obligation to endure those demands. However, as I explained previously---the injury is not just to the human victims/family---In Islam, moral injury also inflicts harm on the human soul and is also a breach of contract (with God) of the duty/obligation of the Trust/Trusteeship placed on humanity. Divine Justice might take all these factors into consideration (it is not for humans to decide---this right belongs to God alone.) Divine Justice is much more encompassing and expansive than Human Justice. The limitations of human justice make it an unfit model for understanding Divine Justice. However, Divine Justice will be fair---this is a mercy and grace promised by God to humanity.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      In case it was not clear---In Islam---Human beings no longer retain the right to ask for forgiveness after death---that right is reserved for the life-time only.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by siam View Post
                        In case it was not clear---In Islam---Human beings no longer retain the right to ask for forgiveness after death---that right is reserved for the life-time only.
                        Same for Christians.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          And just WHY should I ignore or leave out what the Koran says & denies about a historical FACT about Jesus Christ?

                          It is the koran that FIRST MAKES PRESUMPTIONS about Christian facts - in facts it MISREPRESENTS the words, deeds and claims of Jesus Christ, even though the koran only emerged 700 years AFTER THE EXISTENTIAL FACTS of Christ and Christianity.

                          Such FALSE presumptions by the Koran about earlier established facts - 700 centuries LATER from the actual era and contextual time have no basis in facts, except in speculation and fraudulent REVISIONISM as a twisting of reality that fails to be backed by historical investigation as well as theological manipulation.

                          It is rather weird and laughable that you Siam, try to use the “square peg and round hole” excuse about Jesus Christ’s crucifixion, when Christ’s words were said nearly 700 years before the Koran’s unhistorical claims clearly refute, deny and discredit your Koran’s claim in 4/157 that “they neither killed him (Jesus Christ) nor crucified him”.

                          It is crystal clear that Jesus himself already anticipated his own death by execution over 2,000 years ago and said so in Matthew 16:21-23, Mark 8:31-33 and Luke 18:31-33 in the presence of his disciples and recorded as much between Himself and Simon Peter. Only the Koran and Islam tries to hide the facts!

                          And the Koran & Muslims are just like Peter, who wanted to deny Jesus’ execution and death over 2,000 years ago, against the existential facts.

                          Luke 18:31-33:

                          31 Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled.
                          32 He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him;
                          33 they will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.”
                          Muslims and the koran are indeed just like Peter, a follower of Jesus – who tried to stop Jesus from being taken and going to His allegedly “unfair and despicable” death (according to the Koran and muslims).

                          And, just like Peter, Jesus Christ sternly rebukes both Muslims, Islam and the Koran as “SATAN”! For trying to deny His death and crucifixion, over 2,000 years ago.

                          23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

                          Clearly, Jesus Christ’s death by execution and resurrection 2,000 years ago was central to Jesus Christ’s mission and God’s plan and will for the salvation of humanity in Jesus’ own words.

                          When the koran and islam revise the mission of Christ to deny His death at the hands of His enemies, 2000 years ago, making ridiculous, nonsensical claims that Jesus’ mission was to primarily ‘declare and prophesy the coming of Muhammad’ after Jesus’ coming (61/6), they practice the worst kind of baseless revisionism.

                          By committing unjustifiable and fraudulent violence against the Scriptures possible, including twisting the words and pronouncements of Jesus Himself – the Koran and sunna are to be unapologetically exposed as frauds.

                          This is NOT Diversity at all. Either the Gospel or the Koran have the facts. BOTH ACCOUNTS CANNOT be correct and right simultaneously. One is the truth and the other, a downright LIE, usually the claim coming 700 years later is the revisionist lie and is exposed as such. There is no space for thoughtless compromises in such fundamentals unless you are on the side of historical untruths and revisionist lies.

                          NO historian or reputable scholar (yes, even Bart Ehrman) ever denies the crucifixion and death of Jesus Christ over 2,000 years ago, except the Koran - which proves that it is obviously in denial and twists the existential facts.




                          Originally posted by siam View Post
                          Though nice to see a Christian explanation of a doctrine...presumptions about what the Quran says/does not say could have been left out....

                          As explained many times previously---The Christian story makes sense ONLY in the Christian context---One must give assent to the starting premises.
                          Islam has very different starting premises---and therefore a different world-view/paradigm. Trying to "Christianize" Islam is like putting a square piece into a round hole...the 2 simply will not fit.

                          Maybe if we accept that diversity IS God's plan---we could have more interesting exchange of ideas and fruitful conversations?....You have a right to your beliefs and I have a right to mine.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by siam View Post
                            In case it was not clear---In Islam---Human beings no longer retain the right to ask for forgiveness after death---that right is reserved for the life-time only.
                            I don't recall you ever being clear in this forum regarding a lot of things a lot of people were not allowed to do under sharia .... ESPECIALLY THE DHIMMIS. Perhaps you would be so kind as to enlighten us regarding the dhimmi's situation in a strict sharia compliant society???



                            Comment


                            • #74
                              ALSO, not forgetting that God/Allah made and predestined people for destruction and to perish in hell according to sura 4/88 (& 89) and also in the hadith sahih (valid hadith). In those cases, Muslims can ask for God's forgiveness but will never get it.

                              Allah had led them astray and to perish in hell / Jahannam. No amount of pleading changes their fate since Allah has willed it. For the people who God has predestined for hell, their actions will all correspond likewise and be worthy of hell.

                              Surah 14/4 - "Allah leads astray whomsoever he will and guides whomsoever he will"

                              Hadith No: 22
                              Narrated/Authority of Abdur-Rahman bin Qatada As-Salami:-

                              I heard the Prophet (SAW) saying: Allah created Adam, took his progeny from his back and said: These will go to Hell and these will go to Paradise.

                              Somebody said, the narrator added: O Messenger (PBUH) of Allah, what shall we do then? The Prophet (SAW) said: You will do according to your destiny. (This Hadith is good and narrated by Ahmad)

                              Linked here - https://ahadith.co.uk/110ahadithqudsi.php

                              This is not a not at all "a compassionate and merciful God" as claimed by the Koran and islam, not by a long shot.


                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              Again, you are talking about Mercy, not Justice. Forgiving someone is mercy. It is foregoing Justice and giving mercy to the offender instead. Justice is about making a wrong right or punishing the wrongdoer. That is why we have our "Justice System" that makes people pay for their crimes, but we also have mercy in our system, in paroles, and pardons. And you are saying that God can forgive you for sins you do against someone else? How would that be "justice?" - Say you kill someone and ask their family for forgiveness, they say "no" - but you can ask God to forgive you and shortcut the justice the family deserves? That isn't justice.




                              You still aren't getting it. Say you have done more evil than good in your life. But you ask God to forgive you. Are your deeds still weighed after you die? If you are forgiven, then there is no point in weighing your deeds. But if they are weighed you will end up as "evil" which would contradict God forgiving you.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by siam View Post

                                That is the Christian perspective.
                                Islam has a different paradigm.
                                Y'all seem to think you can "buy" your way into heaven by simply saying the right things and following the rules. News flash. You're going to fail. Being human, in spite of the best intentions, people WILL screw up from time to time (at the very least). Hence, nobody can succeed without God extending his mercy through Christ

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by Dan Zebiri, 03-30-2019, 04:15 AM
                                133 responses
                                18,805 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Dan Zebiri  
                                Working...
                                X