Announcement

Collapse

Islam Guidelines

Theists only.

This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to Islam. This forum is generally for theists only, and is not the area for debate between atheists and theists. Non-theist may not post here without first obtaining permission from the moderator of this forum. Granting of such permission is subject to Moderator discretion - and may be revoked if the Moderator feels that the poster is not keeping with the spirit of the World Religions Department.



Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Did Jesus die and rise from the dead?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
    Obviously it was Jesus the Man Who died, Siam. GOD cannot die by His essential nature.
    With all due respect, I think some every important Scripture having to due with "death" is being overlooked here.

    Comment


    • #17
      Christianity is a "mystery" therefore an overly logical/reasoning approach might be a disservice to Christian premises...nevertheless, there is a (Christian) story and it has its event-progression...
      ---Adam and Eve sin
      ---Sin stains all subsequent humanity
      ---God "incarnates" into God-man
      ---God-man is without sin
      ---Sacrifice of God-man works as "stain-remover"
      ---once stain of original sin is removed, access to heaven is unobstructed.

      In this story, the sacrifice/death of God-man is a necessary event, and without it the progression would not work. (the logic of it will forever escape me...so no comment on that)
      ...assumptions/claims that God-man does not die or only partly dies or that "to die" has a different meaning...etc may or may not benefit the "story"....?.....
      my observation is it would detract from the event-progression?....keeping it simple might be a better option?

      Comment


      • #18

        There is actually NOTHING mysterious - except to closed and presumptuous prejudiced minds, about the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the Messiah and Lord Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago in Israel.

        Instead of going by your "outlined story" below, I would much rather listen and heed the clear voice of Jesus Christ Himself as recorded in the Synoptics and clarified in the John Gospel form the earliest records we have about Jesus in the Holy Bible:

        Matthew 16: 15 - 23 records the discussion of Christ himself with his disciples about his death, and especially with Peter the leading Apostle (hawariyun in Arabic/Ethiopic) thusly:
        15 But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?

        16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

        17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[b] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[c] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[d] loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.


        Jesus then predicts His Death:

        21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

        22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!

        23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.


        Jesus' death by execution in His era, was already declared and prophesied by the Messiah himself as the above dialogue explicates unmistakably. Notice, that when Peter tried to oppose the death of Jesus and started to promote the notion to deny Jesus' death by an execution - JESUS HIMSELF condemned such a notion to deflect his death in no uncertain terms.

        It is crystal clear that Christ's death and execution was already on his own heart and mind over 2,000 years ago - as something ordained by the concerns of almighty GOD Himself, and any human efforts to prevent or deflect Jesus' execution and death was met with Jesus' own fierce condemnation, see - He did not even use Peter's name at all, but called Peter SATAN!

        So, the presumptuous notions of sura 4/157-158 - from the Koran, that his enemies "did not kill him (Jesus) nor crucified Him" are exactly what Jesus himself condemns as ungodly concerns and can be seen from the similar denials Peter the follower of Christ tried to prevent from happening - which are echoed by Islam, albeit fallaciously!

        Jesus Death over 2000 years ago was very much in line with the will of GOD and according to His ordained almighty purposes - for Jesus Christ and the whole world.

        Nothing remotely "mysterious" at all as the earliest documented records confirm from the lips of Christ Himself.






        Originally posted by siam View Post
        Christianity is a "mystery" therefore an overly logical/reasoning approach might be a disservice to Christian premises...nevertheless, there is a (Christian) story and it has its event-progression...
        ---Adam and Eve sin
        ---Sin stains all subsequent humanity
        ---God "incarnates" into God-man
        ---God-man is without sin
        ---Sacrifice of God-man works as "stain-remover"
        ---once stain of original sin is removed, access to heaven is unobstructed.

        In this story, the sacrifice/death of God-man is a necessary event, and without it the progression would not work. (the logic of it will forever escape me...so no comment on that)
        ...assumptions/claims that God-man does not die or only partly dies or that "to die" has a different meaning...etc may or may not benefit the "story"....?.....
        my observation is it would detract from the event-progression?....keeping it simple might be a better option?

        Comment


        • #19

          Ultimately, it was Jesus himself Who let his human life to be taken from him in the end by his enemies, over 2,000 years ago outside Jerusalem. having said:
          14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,

          15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.

          16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

          17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again.

          18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord.

          I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”
          JOHN 10: 14-18


          All the above were declared by Jesus of Nazareth Over six centuries BEFORE the birth of either Muhammad or his socio-political religious system, Islam.

          Nothing puzzling nor mysterious at all about Christ's pronouncements of his death and resurrection at the existential time, ALL Were in line with his purpose and mission statement clearly pronounced

          in Matthew:
          "..the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

          MATTHEW 20: 28



          Much BETTER to heed the voice of the actual Person concerned - Jesus Christ, than the frivolous and doubtful detractions of the Koran (4/157/158), claimed without factual nor historical basis centuries after the facts.





          Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
          There is actually NOTHING mysterious - except to closed and presumptuous prejudiced minds, about the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the Messiah and Lord Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago in Israel.

          Instead of going by your "outlined story" below, I would much rather listen and heed the clear voice of Jesus Christ Himself as recorded in the Synoptics and clarified in the John Gospel form the earliest records we have about Jesus in the Holy Bible:

          Matthew 16: 15 - 23 records the discussion of Christ himself with his disciples about his death, and especially with Peter the leading Apostle (hawariyun in Arabic/Ethiopic) thusly:
          15 But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?

          16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

          17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[b] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[c] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[d] loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.


          Jesus then predicts His Death:

          21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

          22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!

          23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.


          Jesus' death by execution in His era, was already declared and prophesied by the Messiah himself as the above dialogue explicates unmistakably. Notice, that when Peter tried to oppose the death of Jesus and started to promote the notion to deny Jesus' death by an execution - JESUS HIMSELF condemned such a notion to deflect his death in no uncertain terms.

          It is crystal clear that Christ's death and execution was already on his own heart and mind over 2,000 years ago - as something ordained by the concerns of almighty GOD Himself, and any human efforts to prevent or deflect Jesus' execution and death was met with Jesus' own fierce condemnation, see - He did not even use Peter's name at all, but called Peter SATAN!

          So, the presumptuous notions of sura 4/157-158 - from the Koran, that his enemies "did not kill him (Jesus) nor crucified Him" are exactly what Jesus himself condemns as ungodly concerns and can be seen from the similar denials Peter the follower of Christ tried to prevent from happening - which are echoed by Islam, albeit fallaciously!

          Jesus Death over 2000 years ago was very much in line with the will of GOD and according to His ordained almighty purposes - for Jesus Christ and the whole world.

          Nothing remotely "mysterious" at all as the earliest documented records confirm from the lips of Christ Himself.







          Comment


          • #20
            Though nice to see a Christian explanation of a doctrine...presumptions about what the Quran says/does not say could have been left out....

            As explained many times previously---The Christian story makes sense ONLY in the Christian context---One must give assent to the starting premises.
            Islam has very different starting premises---and therefore a different world-view/paradigm. Trying to "Christianize" Islam is like putting a square piece into a round hole...the 2 simply will not fit.

            Maybe if we accept that diversity IS God's plan---we could have more interesting exchange of ideas and fruitful conversations?....You have a right to your beliefs and I have a right to mine.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by siam View Post
              Though nice to see a Christian explanation of a doctrine...presumptions about what the Quran says/does not say could have been left out....

              As explained many times previously---The Christian story makes sense ONLY in the Christian context---One must give assent to the starting premises.
              Islam has very different starting premises---and therefore a different world-view/paradigm. Trying to "Christianize" Islam is like putting a square piece into a round hole...the 2 simply will not fit.

              Maybe if we accept that diversity IS God's plan---we could have more interesting exchange of ideas and fruitful conversations?....You have a right to your beliefs and I have a right to mine.
              You have a right to believe what you want, but only one viewpoint can be true (or maybe neither). Islam and Christianity are contradictory to each other.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by siam View Post
                Islam has very different starting premises---and therefore a different world-view/paradigm. Trying to "Christianize" Islam is like putting a square piece into a round hole...the 2 simply will not fit.
                In other words, Islam is not redeemable. Thank you.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                  You have a right to believe what you want, but only one viewpoint can be true (or maybe neither). Islam and Christianity are contradictory to each other.
                  There are similarities and contradictions. Charity is important for both Christians and Muslims. It is an area in which both can work together for the improvement of humanity.
                  another area of similarity is in economics---I think Jesus Christ did not favor usury?... today's Islamic economics is trying to come up with an alternate to the interest based systems we have and might be an interesting area of co-operation between Christians and Muslims?
                  Islamic ethico-moral philosophy is based on Tawheed (One God/Unity). One God is a concept that Chrisitianity does not deny...so this too can be an area of an exchange of ideas, concepts, philosophies that might benefit both?

                  One does not need to compromise on important creedal aspects in order to co-operate on matters that are mutually beneficial. ----Goodness wins over evil---our good thoughts and actions will create a better world which will benefit all of us.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Trucker View Post

                    In other words, Islam is not redeemable. Thank you.
                    We are both human---or, one might say we are all "Bani Adam" (children of Adam)...therefore brothers. Both Christianity and Islam are here to stay. If so, how can we best reflect God's compassion and mercy in our attitudes towards one another?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by siam View Post

                      There are similarities and contradictions. Charity is important for both Christians and Muslims. It is an area in which both can work together for the improvement of humanity.
                      another area of similarity is in economics---I think Jesus Christ did not favor usury?... today's Islamic economics is trying to come up with an alternate to the interest based systems we have and might be an interesting area of co-operation between Christians and Muslims?
                      Islamic ethico-moral philosophy is based on Tawheed (One God/Unity). One God is a concept that Chrisitianity does not deny...so this too can be an area of an exchange of ideas, concepts, philosophies that might benefit both?

                      One does not need to compromise on important creedal aspects in order to co-operate on matters that are mutually beneficial. ----Goodness wins over evil---our good thoughts and actions will create a better world which will benefit all of us.
                      All religions have common "themes" and morals. But the underlying truth can only be one of them, not all. Yes, we can agree on common things, such as charity. But either Jesus died and rose from the dead and is the Son of God, or he isn't. Truth is binary. If he did, then your faith is in vain, no matter how many good deeds you do. If he didn't, then my faith is in vain.

                      Although, under Islam, isn't is true that "people of the book" are also included in those who can go to Heaven? From what I understand, God will judge us by our hearts and deeds. If there is more good than bad, then we are allowed in heaven according to Islam, correct? So even if my faith is incorrect, I think I would still be saved if Islam is correct. Unfortunately, if Islam is incorrect, there is no salvation for you unless you accept Christ as your savior. Under Christianity, we are not judged by our works but by our loyalty and faith. None of our works are good enough to get into heaven. But Jesus was sinless and the son of God, so he paid the price of our sins and any who follow him as their Lord and Savior will be saved. Any who don't won't be.


                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                        All religions have common "themes" and morals. But the underlying truth can only be one of them, not all. Yes, we can agree on common things, such as charity. But either Jesus died and rose from the dead and is the Son of God, or he isn't. Truth is binary. If he did, then your faith is in vain, no matter how many good deeds you do. If he didn't, then my faith is in vain.

                        Although, under Islam, isn't is true that "people of the book" are also included in those who can go to Heaven? From what I understand, God will judge us by our hearts and deeds. If there is more good than bad, then we are allowed in heaven according to Islam, correct? So even if my faith is incorrect, I think I would still be saved if Islam is correct. Unfortunately, if Islam is incorrect, there is no salvation for you unless you accept Christ as your savior. Under Christianity, we are not judged by our works but by our loyalty and faith. None of our works are good enough to get into heaven. But Jesus was sinless and the son of God, so he paid the price of our sins and any who follow him as their Lord and Savior will be saved. Any who don't won't be.
                        Yuppers. Christians can't "buy" their way into heaven through alms or good deeds. The simple fact is we can never make ourselves worthy of being admitted into Heaven and are in need of the salvation offered by Christ.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by siam View Post
                          We are both human---or, one might say we are all "Bani Adam" (children of Adam)...therefore brothers.
                          Then why are you mandated (Q 9:29 for merely one example) to fight me if I am your brother???

                          Both Christianity and Islam are here to stay. If so, how can we best reflect God's compassion and mercy in our attitudes towards one another?
                          By beheading those who disagree with you? I think not!

                          By enslaving my wife and raping my daughters? I think not!

                          By the imposition of sharia worldwide? I think not!

                          And on and on and .......................................
                          .

                          Jesus showed us a far better way, sir,













                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                            All religions have common "themes" and morals. But the underlying truth can only be one of them, not all. Yes, we can agree on common things, such as charity. But either Jesus died and rose from the dead and is the Son of God, or he isn't. Truth is binary. If he did, then your faith is in vain, no matter how many good deeds you do. If he didn't, then my faith is in vain.

                            Although, under Islam, isn't is true that "people of the book" are also included in those who can go to Heaven? From what I understand, God will judge us by our hearts and deeds. If there is more good than bad, then we are allowed in heaven according to Islam, correct? So even if my faith is incorrect, I think I would still be saved if Islam is correct. Unfortunately, if Islam is incorrect, there is no salvation for you unless you accept Christ as your savior. Under Christianity, we are not judged by our works but by our loyalty and faith. None of our works are good enough to get into heaven. But Jesus was sinless and the son of God, so he paid the price of our sins and any who follow him as their Lord and Savior will be saved. Any who don't won't be.
                            Truth---The Indian Vedas say "Truth is one, people call it by different names"---I think we can both agree---since neither you nor I have met God---that only God can decide what is "Truth".....and that will be after we are dead...so in our existence now---we can choose to leave judgements to God and instead work to please God, and better ourselves and our world. The alternative is to judge others harshly which can lead to division that can enhance hate which can morph into destruction---such an outcome is bad for everyone.

                            People of the Book---Yes, correct. God is most merciful, most compassionate, and most just. If Christians are OK with a harsh, unforgiving, unjust concept of God---that is fine by me---its not my religion---its yours.
                            Christianity does have the building blocks within it to be more forgiving and compassionate---If I am not wrong---the sacrifice wiped off the sins of all humanity? If so---an interpretation that allows for good people to go to heaven is still possible.....?....

                            Christian doctrines make no sense to me. Perhaps that is why God allowed for diversity? Islam gives me the "way"/path to worship One God in a form that I can understand and agree with.

                            Christians have gained benefits from polytheists---such as the use of zero and mathematics from the Indian religion, philosophy from the Greeks...etc...much of it filtered through from Islam/Muslims. Such co-operation for mutual benefit can still continue....?....

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              Yuppers. Christians can't "buy" their way into heaven through alms or good deeds. The simple fact is we can never make ourselves worthy of being admitted into Heaven and are in need of the salvation offered by Christ.
                              Good point---one can interpret it as transactional.
                              Even between humans, our relationships have a transactional quality---study hard = get good grades, work = get salary, be friendly = get friends...etc.
                              The Prophet(pbuh) was a Merchant/Trader and there is a transactional quality about the Islamic world-view/paradigm. From the Quranic perspective ---a "religion" is a covenant/contract between Man and God----that of Trusteeship (Khalifa). God has provided blessings to humanity---we are allowed to use Earths resources (God's creation) for our comfort and benefit---in return---we have an obligation to obey God's will = right belief that promotes right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creation. All of God's creation includes us humans too. Therefore harm done to other humans would be breaking the covenant/contract---and this comes with consequences.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Trucker View Post

                                Then why are you mandated (Q 9:29 for merely one example) to fight me if I am your brother???

                                By beheading those who disagree with you? I think not!

                                By enslaving my wife and raping my daughters? I think not!

                                By the imposition of sharia worldwide? I think not!

                                And on and on and .......................................
                                .

                                Jesus showed us a far better way, sir,
                                better way?....such as?

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by lee_merrill, 03-19-2021, 05:13 PM
                                85 responses
                                481 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Dan Zebiri  
                                Working...
                                X