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Did Jesus die and rise from the dead?

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  • Did Jesus die and rise from the dead?

    Thoughts from Michael Licona on a "catch-22" for Islam, Jesus predicted his death, if he did not die (as the Qu'ran says) then Jesus is a false prophet. Yet the Qu'ran says Jesus is a great prophet, and the Qu'ran is wrong in this claim. Then if Jesus did die, then the Qu'ran is again wrong, claiming that Jesus did not die.



    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  • #2
    A good point Lee, and a catch-22 dilemma for muslim dawagandists (ie. preachers and propogandists) who claim from their koran that Jesus never died but was "rescued by their Allah" over 2000 years ago to escape His crucifixion.

    Even the muslim propogandists favorite go-to liberal theologian to attack Christianity, Bart Ehrman, admits to the historical fact of the Crufixion of Jesus Christ over 2,000 years ago. It was Jesus Christ who was actually crucified on the Cross, not some substitute for Him, as Koran 4/157 naively and blindly claims.

    Cherry-picking and selective MISreading of Bible and Gospel verses have always been the fall back position for muslims who end up misrepresenting what Christ taught over and over again, this is a sham and a shame.



    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Thoughts from Michael Licona on a "catch-22" for Islam, Jesus predicted his death, if he did not die (as the Qu'ran says) then Jesus is a false prophet. Yet the Qu'ran says Jesus is a great prophet, and the Qu'ran is wrong in this claim. Then if Jesus did die, then the Qu'ran is again wrong, claiming that Jesus did not die.



    Blessings,
    Lee

    Comment


    • #3

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #4
        There is another way to look at Surah 4:157 & 8.

        Does Surah 4:157 in the Qur’an say that Jesus was not crucified or did not die? No it doesn’t. It simply says the Jews did not kill or crucify Jesus and they didn’t; the Romans did. Sure the Jews wanted Jesus gone and took Jesus to the Romans but they did not kill Jesus nor did they crucify Jesus; the Romans did and that is all the Qur’an is saying.

        Surah 4:157 in context:

        Surah 4:155 is speaking of the Jews:
        Literal
        (Word by Word)
        Then because of their breaking (of) their covenant and their disbelief in (the) Signs (of) Allah and their killing (of) the Prophets without any right and their saying, "Our hearts (are) wrapped." Nay, Allah (has) set a seal on their (hearts) for their disbelief so not they believe except a few.
        Surah 4:156 is speaking of the Jews:
        Literal
        (Word by Word)
        And for their disbelief and their saying against Maryam a slander great.
        Surah 4:157 is speaking of the Jews:
        Literal
        (Word by Word)
        And for their saying, "Indeed, we killed the Messiah, Isa, son (of) Maryam, (the) Messenger (of) Allah." And not they killed him and not they crucified him but it was made to appear (so) to them. And indeed, those who differ in it (are) surely in doubt about it. Not for them about it [of] (any) knowledge except (the) following (of) assumption. And not they killed him, certainly.
        Surah 4:158
        Literal
        (Word by Word)
        Nay, Allah raised him towards Him. And Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.
        Surah 4:158 is confirming that Jesus was taken alive after He died and this confirms the testimony of the New Testament.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
          There is another way to look at Surah 4:157 & 8.

          "And not they killed him and not they crucified him but it was made to appear (so) to them."
          So this is certainly not saying that the Romans did this. "Not [the Jewish people] crucified him but it was made to appear (so) to them"? Then "made to appear" would mean Jesus was not actually crucified, as well as not put to death.

          Surah 4:158 is confirming that Jesus was taken alive after He died and this confirms the testimony of the New Testament.
          And as I have heard, Muslims believe Jesus was taken up to heaven, and not killed.

          Blessings,
          Lee
          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            So this is certainly not saying that the Romans did this. "Not [the Jewish people] crucified him but it was made to appear (so) to them"? Then "made to appear" would mean Jesus was not actually crucified, as well as not put to death.


            And as I have heard, Muslims believe Jesus was taken up to heaven, and not killed.

            Blessings,
            Lee
            I don't agree.

            And their saying: "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, God's messenger,

            The Jews claimed at the time to have killed Jesus.

            and they have not killed him, and they have not crucified him/placed him on a cross, But they did not.

            The Romans did.

            and but (it) resembled/was vague/was doubtful to them,

            The Jews were afraid to do it themselves, and after Christ rose there was disagreement among the Jews as to whether Jesus had really been killed. Reports of His empty tomb and of His appearing alive spawned a mixture of explanations which left the Jews in doubt as to whether He had really died.

            and that those who disagreed/disputed in (about) him (are) in (E) doubt/suspicion from him,

            Those Jews who do not want to believe He rose from the dead regard the gospel and Jesus Christ with suspicion.

            (there is) no knowledge for them with (about) him, except following the assumption,

            But those Jews rejecting the gospel of His resurrection are merely following their own assumptions without true knowledge.

            and they have not killed him surely/certainly.

            Certainly, the Jews did not kill him. Firstly, it was the Romans who did, and secondly, he is no longer dead.

            Comment


            • #7
              OK, after discussing what I presented above to dozens and dozens of Muslims only one said it made sense.

              The fact is that Muslims do not believe Jesus was crucified and died and rose from the dead, based on their interpretation of Surahs 4:157 & 8. They believe Jesus was saved by Allah translated Him alive into heaven -- "beam me up, Scotty."

              As far as I am aware, only the Ahmadis believe Jesus was crucified, but they do not believe Jesus died as a result.

              They believe Jesus survived the cross, went to India, lived to be 120 years old and died and was buried in Kashmir.

              One problem Muslims have is that the Qur'an in many verses says it confirms past revelations. Jesus dying and rising from the dead surely would be a huge revelation!

              Here is just one: And when there came to them a Book from Allah verifying that which they have, and aforetime they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieve, but when there came to them (Prophet) that which they did not recognize, they disbelieved in him; so Allah's curse is on the unbelievers. S. 2:89 Shakir

              Another problem: And in their footsteps, We sent 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) confirming the Taurat (Torah) that had come before him, and We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Taurat (Torah) that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for Al-Muttaqun (the pious - see V.2:2). S. 5:46 Al-Hilali & Khan; cf. S. 57:27

              Allah gave Jesus the Gospel. Since Jesus' death and resurrection is at the core of the Gospel, just what did the author of the Qur'an think the Gospel was?





              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                Allah gave Jesus the Gospel. Since Jesus' death and resurrection is at the core of the Gospel, just what did the author of the Qur'an think the Gospel was?
                That's a good question, now as I have heard Muslims believe the Bible has been corrupted. Yet the earliest papyrus we have supports John 18:31-33, where Jesus is mentioned as signifying "the death he was about to die." The very point Muslims will disagree on.

                Blessings,
                Lee
                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                  That's a good question, now as I have heard Muslims believe the Bible has been corrupted. Yet the earliest papyrus we have supports <a href="https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=John+18.31-33&amp;t=NIV" target="BLB_NW" rel="NIV.John.18.31-33" class="BLBST_a" style="white-space: nowrap;">John 18:31-33</a>, where Jesus is mentioned as signifying "the death he was about to die." The very point Muslims will disagree on.

                  Blessings,
                  Lee
                  Yeah, Muslims frequently bring out "the bible is corrupted card," but the Qur'an does not say the Bible is corrupted.


                  1. The Qur'an declares the Bible to be a true revelation of God and demands faith in the Bible. Surah 2:40-42,126,136,285; 3:3,71,93; 4:47,136; 5:47-51, 69,71-72; 6:91; 10:37,94; 21:7; 29:45,46; 35:31; 46:11

                  (a) All these above texts presuppose the availability of the true revelation of God to the people of Muhammad's day. Surah 3:71,93; 10:94; 21:71

                  (b) A true Muslim is obliged to believe in all the revelations of God. Surah 2:136; 4:136; 29:46

                  (c) The Qur'an makes no distinction between God's revelations. Surah 2:136

                  2. The Qur'an claims that no one can change the Word of God. Surah 6:34; 10:34

                  ​​​​​​​

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Crucifixion---
                    Islam IS NOT Christianity and therefore does not affirm the paradigm/premises that make Christian foundations.
                    In the Islamic paradigm/worldview ---even if a crucifixion had occurred, it would hold no particular value as the premises that give it meaning for Christians are not assented to.

                    God forgives whomever he pleases whenever he pleases and human sacrifice is not required for this process.

                    If it bothers Christians that the Quran does not affirm their paradigm and starting premises---its their problem.

                    The claim of God deceiving Christians ---If Christians prefer to think of God in this way---I have no comment, ...but it would make more sense that humans deceive themselves......

                    Prophet Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew who believed in One God as did all Jews. At the time of the "event" (crucifixion) the followers had 2 options---a) find an explanation for the "event" b) leave it unexplained and focus on the teaching/message of One God taught by Prophet Jesus. They chose path a) of their own free-will.

                    As to demographic numbers (mentioned in Video)---Christianity and Islam combined, form more than half the worlds population as "monotheists". That is a lot of people who give assent to the proposition that God is One.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                      OK, ......

                      Allah gave Jesus the Gospel. Since Jesus' death and resurrection is at the core of the Gospel, just what did the author of the Qur'an think the Gospel was?
                      From the Islamic/Quranic perspective---God sent Guidance to all humanity and the core message of this Guidance was that God is One (Tawheed). Prophet Jesus (pbuh) brought this same message (as did all other Prophets before him) that God is One.
                      If human beings prefer to disregard this Guidance in favor of other speculations that is their choice.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by siam View Post

                        From the Islamic/Quranic perspective---God sent Guidance to all humanity and the core message of this Guidance was that God is One (Tawheed). Prophet Jesus (pbuh) brought this same message (as did all other Prophets before him) that God is One.
                        If human beings prefer to disregard this Guidance in favor of other speculations that is their choice.
                        And Christians and Jews believe in only one God.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by siam View Post
                          Crucifixion---
                          Islam IS NOT Christianity and therefore does not affirm the paradigm/premises that make Christian foundations.
                          In the Islamic paradigm/worldview ---even if a crucifixion had occurred, it would hold no particular value as the premises that give it meaning for Christians are not assented to.
                          But the question before us is this, "Did Jesus die?" If he did die, then the Qur'an is mistaken, and if he did not die, then Jesus was a false prophet, and the Qur'an again is incorrect.

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                            But the question before us is this, "Did Jesus die?" If he did die, then the Qur'an is mistaken, and if he did not die, then Jesus was a false prophet, and the Qur'an again is incorrect.

                            Blessings,
                            Lee
                            So...it is your belief as a Christian that it was not God that died but man?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Obviously it was Jesus the Man Who died, Siam. GOD cannot die by His essential nature. Jesus Christ is the God-Man in one person. He has two natures, one divine and the other, human.

                              The sinless MAN Jesus Christ died on the Cross over 2,000 years ago, no reputable historian denies this historical fact, even Bart Ehrman affirms and assents to it.

                              1 Peter 2:24 clearly states, referring to Jesus the Man: "He himself bore our sins” in HIS BODY on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed."





                              Originally posted by siam View Post

                              So...it is your belief as a Christian that it was not God that died but man?

                              Comment

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