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  • #61

    What a poor liar you are, Siam. Your – or your muslim friend’s whom you consulted – both of your statements are the really nonsensical ones. You can make such a blundering claim like:
    "here is a confusion of terms here which renders the above statements nonsensical.
    Qirat refers to (oral) recitation.
    Hadith are NOT Quran
    Mutawatir---is a classification category used for ahadith."



    So, mutawatir & tawatur are criteria ONLY for hadith is it? Either your knowledge of tawatur or mutawatir is really crappy and shallow. Or you are just trying your luck to lie again to us! Well, hard luck on you then.

    Mutawatir or “provenance” of the readings are only for the hadith?? NOT according all the ahli sunnah orthodox scholars PAST And PRESENT. You must think we are stupid, perhaps like you and your muslim friends are!


    The islam.stackexchange.com blog (mutawatir entry) has numerous discussions about qiraat and tawatur and mutawatir. They all agree that mutawatir /tawatur (provenance) determines any qiraat validity.
    And mutawtir IS NOT just applicable to the hadith – it applies very much to qiraats too! Therefore to the Quran AS WELL.

    Go also to another Muslim link – www.ibnamin.com/tawatur_quran.htm. You can translate from the Arabic and it is clear as day. Only ‘tawatur’ qiraats should make up the Quran. And yet there are so many inconsistencies and contradictions among themselves.

    Likewise Wikipedia gives confirmation on this too. No evidence to support your devious claim that mutawatir is ' "classification category used for hadith" only!

    Mutawatir is very much for the qiraats of the quran ALSO!


    Anyway, the fath al-bari reports [From Zaid:]


    “I found the last verse of sura al Tawba in the possession of Abu Khuzaima al Ansari, having found it with NO ONE ELSE, ‘There has now come to you…’ to the end of the sura.

    - p.119, Ahmad b.Ali b. Muhd.Asqalani, ibn Hajar, “Fath al Bari,” 13 vols. Cairo, 1939/1348 vol.9, p.9

    This is an example of a verse that IS NON-TAWATUR ie.Not Mutawatir whasoever. Sura 9/128,129 were only found with Khuzaima and nobody else.

    And yet it became a Quran verse in spite of not complying with and defying the orthodox criteria of mutawatir – which 9/128 & 129 is clearly not tawatur as recorded by al-Bukhari himself!

    Dr. Nasser considers this as proof of non-tawatur verses in the Quran, inserted unscrupulously by MAN and not by God for sure.

    If there are TWO such verses - sura at-tawba 9/128-129, how many more have been inserted – not by Allah or Jibril, but by the human manufacturers of the Quran?

    You claim we follow made-up stories. But the fact that the quran was standardized by man’s decisions, interventions and dubious intrigues are not fabrications nor fairy stories. They are ALL found in valid, orthodox Islamic sources themselves.
    The interventions by ibn Mujahid to select 7 from 40 readings are well documented by the early grammarians. Likewise the next human intervention of the taking of more qiraats for the making of the standard Quran – 480 Years later by ibn al-Jazari are also recorded by Arabists and well known Muslims.

    These are recorded in the documented history of the development and compilation of al quran.

    Who are you to deny them? Or call them “stories”. Dr. Nasser considers the as SOUND. Are you more qualified than him – a credentialed muslim PhD scholar?!? Give me a break!!


    The fact is the quran is based on extremely flimsy history, doubtful and curiously questionable “evidences”. It is not worthy at all to be compared to the how the Bible was canonized.






    Originally posted by siam View Post
    corrections to assumptions...
    1) Shady Nasser and the 10 questions
    2) Surah 16 verse 103
    3) "Foreign" words in Quran

    1.


    ... “if there is only ONE Koran, why are there so many codices, readings and variants in the readings ? “qiraats” that floated around then?
    Qirat (reading) are simply variations on how a text is read/recited---it can be read in a monotone, in inflected tones...rhythmically ...etc. sometimes a long or short pronunciation can change a word for example in Surah Fatiha (1st surah) the Arabic word Malik can be understood in 2 ways depending on pronunciation. 1) as King or 2) as Master. Both understandings are accurate. This is because the intent of the communication is the same regardless of the synonyms pronounced/recited.
    • Did Allah/God give the ‘revelations’ in all the Arabic dialects represented in the 50 qiraats floating around in that period?...
    No.
    Also dialects are NOT Qirat they are Ahruf (mode, dialect..etc)
    When a Quranic recitation occurred during the time of the Prophet (pbuh)---people were called as audience/witness and scribes wrote down the recitation. The written works were read back to the Prophet who then validated it or corrected it. Only those Ahruf authorized by the Prophet himself and done so with witnesses are considered valid---all others are considered Tafsir (exegesis)---a Tafsir is NOT Quran.
    • Were all these variations originate divinely? OR did people and humans create all these variations? And made them ‘divine’..?
    The Quranic revelation did not occur in isolation but with the whole community as witnesses and participants as well as audience. Questions were asked, topics were discussed and/or debated...etc. This is all recorded in Islamic history. The Quranic revelations interacted with the emergent Muslim community. However, only revelations by the Prophet (pbuh) are considered Quran. Sayings (ahadith) of the Prophet are NOT Quran (have no revelatory authority.) The Quran is NOT "Divine" in the sense that it is not God---it is only a message from God. Therefore one might say it is sacred or holy but one cannot say it is God.
    • When Muslims were allowed to recite the Quran in all these variant different reading forms and variations, WHY were some readings accepted and others were rejected as unacceptable?
    Muslims recite (Qirat) the Quran according to the rules (Tajweed). These rules promote and protect correct enunciations so that errors do not occur.
    • The standard narratives and accounts of the “preservation of the koran” are problematic and contradictory!
    No they are not. They are straightforward and clear. However, people who want to confuse are free to do so with their own "narratives"/stories.
    1st "canonization" occurred under caliph Abu Bakr which is soon after the death of the Prophet. The community, as well as the scribes were witness to this procedure and the first canonization procedure as well as text (mushaf) was used for what is called the "Uthmani codex"---which is the Quran we have today. This statement is acceptable for academics/scholars but for Muslims "canonization" (collection of authoritative text) occurs during the lifetime of the Prophet (pbuh)
    • So, in Hadith al-Bukhari’s account there are contradictions to the notion of “mutawatir” or well-known verses and/or narratives of the Koran. The idea/theory/notion that only the well-known (commonly known & wide-spread) – as opposed to obscure and doubtful single verses/statements are called into question.
    • For instance, two verses which ultimately became the verse/ayat of sura 9/128 was found ONLY with abu Khuzaima and no one else. Therefore, it is definitely NOT mutawatir or widely known & accepted in all the other qiraats, Dr.Nasser finds.
    There is a confusion of terms here which renders the above statements nonsensical.
    Qirat refers to (oral) recitation.
    Hadith are NOT Quran
    Mutawatir---is a classification category used for ahadith.
    • How and on what/whose authorisation did 9/128 get canonized into the Koran?? It’s inclusion into the Koran flatly contravenes the muslim scholars’ own condition of well-accepted criteria of tawatur. This means the applying of double-standards and duplicity in the Koran and its standardization! 29:00 – 32:00 time stamps.
    • The STANDARD accounts of the standardization of the Koran has major contradictions eg Bukhari hadith with others and even in itself.
    • The original, written account of Bukhari’s story of 1) collecting and re-publishing the Koran (by Zaid b. Thabit) and 2) Uthman’s standardized codex (mushaf) sent out to 5 provinces and cities DOES NOT EXIST. Likewise, the 5 supposed standardised codices that were sent to the muslims in Mecca, Madinah, Damascus, Kura and Basra DO NOT EXIST. And MAY NOT have existed at all, that is their stories were only made up to prop up the “justification of the standardizing of the Koran” (Nasser’s words).
    If you feel the need to imagine that the Quran doe not exist---that is fine with me. You are under no obligation to believe that the Arabic text known as the Quran--that Muslims all over the world recite--exists.

    Comment


    • #62
      "Rogue", you are quite right:-

      "And that has been the cornerstone to the claim that the qur'an is authoritative because without it you have a book written by Muhammad where it changes to suit his whims and whatever he desires at the moment."

      When the real history of the qiraats are studied honestly and objectively, THAT is the EXACT conclusion that any honest, rational and thinking person will come to. The Koran is most definitely NOT a "book from God" - it is not of divine origin. But of human origins - say what you like about "oral transmission" - that is actually one of the worst form of preservation for any "book"

      Listen to another interview by Dr.Shady Nasser below:-

      On October 5, 2020 - quite recent, Dr. Shady Nasser gave another interview with some Arabists about the preservantion of the Koran subject.

      Have a listen to this muslim scholar here.. he is MUCH MORE honest than any other muslim scholar of the Koran that are out there! It is most enlightening.

      https://mindingscripture.com/episode...-of-the-quran/

      Any HONEST student of scripture and knowledge should listen to his lecture. I bet you siam and his ilk did not even bother to view the earlier link given (such a cowardly attitude) -

      https://islamicinitiative.uoregon.edu/projects/

      Which is a great public lecture by a Muslim Harvard PhD professor.




      Comment


      • #63
        NOW, Is the Koran preserved "word-for-word" & letter for letter or even "harakah for harakah", Zakir Naik's polemics are BLOWN OUT OF THE Water by Dr. Shady H. Nasser - he says there is NO SUCH THING, and it was NEVER TAUGHT for the classical orthodox Sunni muslim scholars like Tabari, Qurtubi and the others:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIKR...HCJCp&index=12

        And here is the #Qurangate hashtag in YouTube that Muslims should look at (even Yasin Dutton is afraid to mentions Dr. Nasser's illustrious name):

        https://www.youtube.com/hashtag/qurangate

        Many renowned Muslim and Koranic scholars are featured in it so it it worthwhile to have a look!

        Comment


        • #64
          Mutawatir---
          http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/...opr/t125/e1667

          Successive. From tawatur, repetition, constancy. Highest classification of a tradition in hadith criticism; a hadith characterized by an established series of transmitters (isnad), at least two per generation, all of whom are deemed reliable. The number of reliable transmitters, along with other established criteria, ensures that the tradition is not fabricated. The Quran is considered authentic because all verses are mutawatir.

          The above underlined means there are NO degrees of authenticity/classification for the Quran as it either is the Quran or it is not the Quran. Any text that has errors in it is NOT the Quran from a Muslim perspective. It cannot be used by a Muslim for devotional purposes.
          (Words/verses not authenticated by the Prophet as revelation ---are not Quran.)
          The compilation process was very particular. During the lifetime of the Prophet---the Quran was recited in public and written down by scribes. Because of this, there were witnesses to this process. The Prophet (pbuh) indicated which verses and words were to go where in the growing text of the Quran. The audience of Muslim listeners wrote down the revelations for their private use---to memorize and/or to understand (Tafsir). As the Quranic revelation completed---pretty much the whole community had memorized it. When Caliph Abu Bakr made an official text...he ensured that the text was what the Prophet himself recited---by using the original scribes as well as 2 witnesses (for all of the verses). The whole community had memorized the Quran and they also served as validators that the Quranic text was as revealed to the Prophet (pbuh).
          The Uthmani codex that we have today IS this Quran. Caliph Uthman did not just use the text left by Caliph Abu Bakr---but also repeated the process of authentication. Recent discoveries (of documents) also lend credibility to these accounts. For 1,400 + years the Quran has been stable.

          The same cannot be said of the ahadith collections (sayings of the Prophet) which is why we have criteria to establish the chain of transmissions and criteria of authenticity (such as mutawatir)...that this criteria exists is itself an indication of the seriousness of scholarly concerns on authenticity and validity---The ahadith collections are sometimes likened to the NT, but , comparatively---there are no such criteria of evaluation established by the Christian authorities for the NT. The writers of the Gospels are anonymous.

          From the Muslim perspective---the author of the Quran is not Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) this can be established by a literary comparison of the ahadith as well as various treaties by the Prophet. The quality is different.

          In academia (Western Academia) ---Revisionism has been popular and many theories have been proposed. Theories such as---the Prophet did not exist, that Mecca did not exist, or that the Quran was created before or after the Prophet, that the Quran was not originally in Arabic, that it is an erroneous copy of the Bible,...etc...etc...time and again---discoveries and evidence have lent credibility to the traditional accounts and the revisionist theories have been discarded. I do not have anything against a creative re-imagining/speculation of past events---sometimes it provides interesting insights. Therefore skeptics of the traditional accounts serve the purpose of providing new perspectives and this is important when advancing knowledge.

          For me personally, I like wisdom teachings---revealed or not---from the Greeks, from the Chinese, from the Indians---and even wise quotes from the Modern era. Having read the Quran many times---I consider it wisdom teaching (also revelation) ---so regardless of author, I find it a fascinating and useful book.
          It is the same reason I am a Muslim---if one is to make the effort to follow "a way of life"---it better be one that improves ones character and disposes one towards goodness. Otherwise, IMO, it is a useless endeavor. The best religion is one that benefits humanity.

          Comment


          • #65
            So, now you admit – and confirm that the qiraats (koran ‘recitings’) MUST be “mutawatir” for the koran to be authentic. That was what I said all along in my last 2-3 posts. It does not only apply to hadith like u were implying.

            HOWEVER, there are valid hadith proofs that there are Koran verses and ayats THAT WERE NOT TAWATUR Nor Mutawatir (“wide spread and well known through multiple lines of transmission”) THAT are in the Koran.
            The fath al-bari reports :

            “I found the last verse of sura al Tawba in the possession of Abu Khuzaima al Ansari, having found it WITH NO ONE ELSE, ‘There has now come to you…’ to the end of the sura.

            - p.119, Ahmad b.Ali b. Muhd.Asqalani, ibn Hajar, “Fath al Bari,” 13 vols. Cairo, 1939/1348 vol.9, p.9 - The Commentary of Sahih al-Bukhari’s hadith.

            This is an example of a verse that IS NON-TAWATUR ie. Not Mutawatir whasoever. Sura 9/128,129 were ONLY FOUND With Abu Khuzaima and nobody else. Its provenance and reliability is therefore doubted and invalidated by the tawatur criterion!

            And YET it became a Quran verse in spite of not complying with and defying the orthodox criteria of mutawatir – which 9/128 & 129 is clearly not tawatur as recorded by al-Bukhari himself!


            Dr. Shady H. Nasser considers this as proof of non-tawatur verses in the Quran, inserted unscrupulously by MAN and not by God for sure.

            If the so-called “whole community had memorised the koran” like you propagandize, they won’t find sura 9/128-129 ONLY WITH ABU KHUZAIMA! But with other reciters as well! There were NONE as the records prove. Where were the others to make 9/128-129 tawatur??? Where..???

            If there are TWO such verses – AS IN sura at-tawba 9 VERSES 128 & 129, There could very well be OTHER SUCH words, verses and whole chapters inserted into the koran THAT ARE NOT TAWATUR OR MUTAWATIR!
            Just HOW Many more of such have been inserted – not by Allah or Jibril, but by the human manufacturers of the Quran?

            As if the koran could really benefit humanity? How can it do so, when..?-

            1. Sura 9/30 - blatantly curses Christians – for taking Jesus Christ as THE SON OF GOD, and Jews ALSO for doing that to “Ezra”. Vilification and baseless defamations ARE NOT A BENEFIT! Especially when they’re all baseless and LIES.

            2. sura 9/29 Sanctions and commands for attacks and killings upon the “people of the Book” ie – Christians and Jews BY MUSLIMS just FOR NOT BELIEVING in muhamed, his Allah and koran “FIGHT ie KILL (Qatala’) against the People of the Book WHO DO NOT BELIEVE in Allah..” (and islam obviously)..

            These people of the Book were not fighting against muslims. They were ONLY refusing to believe in the lies of Muhamed and islam! That was enough to get them killed! What a non-blessing to Humanity..
            The justification that islam and muslims “only fight in self-defence” here is destroyed and demolished.

            The killing against them only "stops" when these people of the book pay the Poll Tax called JIZYA - which is really a bribe and protection money so they will not BE KILLED, as demanded by the pernicious Quran.


            3. Sura 4/3 – Muslim men can happily take four wives, while the women can only have 1 husband each.

            Just HOW IS THAT a benefit to humanity?? Today, polygamy is shown to be outdated and a curse on family life.

            Sura 4/3 – Muslim men CAN ALSO have sex with the females “that their right hand possess”! This shameless permission is valid even today. These are captives of war or kept women or even single women who work for their perverted Muslim male bosses.

            Don’t these sex perverts just love this ayat sura 4/3 that permit them free sex with such kept women?!? – these are NOT their 4 official wives..but all their unofficial kept women of muslim men that the koran favors with such “rights”

            JUST HOW CAN Point 3. Above ever be a benefit to humanity???

            4. Sura 4/34 – Muslim men
            MUST BEAT THEIR so-called “DISOBEDIENT WIVES How can that ever be a benefit to women – who make up one-half of Humanity?

            Verse 34 says (of muslim men dealing with ‘offending wives’): “you may admonish them..refuse to share beds with them AND BEAT THEM..” in Arabic the word is ‘daraba’ which the Pickthall koran translates as “SCOURGE them

            JUST HOW CAN Point 4 above from sura 4/34 EVER BE a “benefit to humanity”???

            Going by these koran verses ALONE and the criteria of “benefitting humanity” THE KORAN HAD FAILED MISERABLY AND horribly – It can never be of ANY benefit whatsoever, let alone any blessing to any one
            in the world.


            Shame on you Siam, if you can find any excuses for the above curses on humanity from your ‘beautiful Quran’…! What a crazy & pretentious farce it is in all reality.






            Originally posted by siam View Post
            Mutawatir---
            http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/...opr/t125/e1667

            Successive. From tawatur, repetition, constancy. Highest classification of a tradition in hadith criticism; a hadith characterized by an established series of transmitters (isnad), at least two per generation, all of whom are deemed reliable. The number of reliable transmitters, along with other established criteria, ensures that the tradition is not fabricated. The Quran is considered authentic because all verses are mutawatir.

            The above underlined means there are NO degrees of authenticity/classification for the Quran as it either is the Quran or it is not the Quran. Any text that has errors in it is NOT the Quran from a Muslim perspective. It cannot be used by a Muslim for devotional purposes.
            (Words/verses not authenticated by the Prophet as revelation ---are not Quran.)
            The compilation process was very particular. During the lifetime of the Prophet---the Quran was recited in public and written down by scribes. Because of this, there were witnesses to this process. The Prophet (pbuh) indicated which verses and words were to go where in the growing text of the Quran. The audience of Muslim listeners wrote down the revelations for their private use---to memorize and/or to understand (Tafsir). As the Quranic revelation completed---pretty much the whole community had memorized it. When Caliph Abu Bakr made an official text...he ensured that the text was what the Prophet himself recited---by using the original scribes as well as 2 witnesses (for all of the verses). The whole community had memorized the Quran and they also served as validators that the Quranic text was as revealed to the Prophet (pbuh).
            The Uthmani codex that we have today IS this Quran. Caliph Uthman did not just use the text left by Caliph Abu Bakr---but also repeated the process of authentication. Recent discoveries (of documents) also lend credibility to these accounts. For 1,400 + years the Quran has been stable.

            The same cannot be said of the ahadith collections (sayings of the Prophet) which is why we have criteria to establish the chain of transmissions and criteria of authenticity (such as mutawatir)...that this criteria exists is itself an indication of the seriousness of scholarly concerns on authenticity and validity---The ahadith collections are sometimes likened to the NT, but , comparatively---there are no such criteria of evaluation established by the Christian authorities for the NT. The writers of the Gospels are anonymous.

            From the Muslim perspective---the author of the Quran is not Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) this can be established by a literary comparison of the ahadith as well as various treaties by the Prophet. The quality is different.

            In academia (Western Academia) ---Revisionism has been popular and many theories have been proposed. Theories such as---the Prophet did not exist, that Mecca did not exist, or that the Quran was created before or after the Prophet, that the Quran was not originally in Arabic, that it is an erroneous copy of the Bible,...etc...etc...time and again---discoveries and evidence have lent credibility to the traditional accounts and the revisionist theories have been discarded. I do not have anything against a creative re-imagining/speculation of past events---sometimes it provides interesting insights. Therefore skeptics of the traditional accounts serve the purpose of providing new perspectives and this is important when advancing knowledge.

            For me personally, I like wisdom teachings---revealed or not---from the Greeks, from the Chinese, from the Indians---and even wise quotes from the Modern era. Having read the Quran many times---I consider it wisdom teaching (also revelation) ---so regardless of author, I find it a fascinating and useful book.
            It is the same reason I am a Muslim---if one is to make the effort to follow "a way of life"---it better be one that improves ones character and disposes one towards goodness. Otherwise, IMO, it is a useless endeavor. The best religion is one that benefits humanity.

            Comment


            • #66

              WHEN Simple, Open Questions are asked of Muslims for honest clarification - like the ones BELOW, they will abdicate, avoid and run away, just like Siam did after more than two weeks, isn't that a crying shame for the propogandists and dawagandists of islam?!

              HOWEVER, there are valid hadith proofs that there are Koran verses and ayats THAT WERE NOT TAWATUR Nor Mutawatir (“wide spread and well known through multiple lines of transmission”) THAT are in the Koran.

              The fath al-bari reports :

              “I found the last verse of sura al Tawba in the possession of Abu Khuzaima al Ansari, having found it WITH NO ONE ELSE, ‘There has now come to you…’ to the end of the sura.

              - p.119, Ahmad b.Ali b. Muhd.Asqalani, ibn Hajar, “Fath al Bari,” 13 vols. Cairo, 1939/1348 vol.9, p.9 - The Commentary of Sahih al-Bukhari’s hadith.

              This is an example of a verse that IS NON-TAWATUR ie. Not Mutawatir whasoever. Sura 9/128 & 129 were ONLY FOUND With Abu Khuzaima and NOBODY ELSE. Its provenance and reliability is therefore doubted and invalidated by the tawatur criterion!

              And YET it became a Quran verse in spite of not complying with and defying the orthodox criteria of mutawatir – which 9/128 & 129 is clearly not tawatur as recorded by al-Bukhari himself!

              Dr. Shady H. Nasser considers this as proof of non-tawatur verses in the Quran, inserted unscrupulously by MAN and not by God for sure.

              If the so-called “whole community had memorised the koran” like you propagandize, they won’t find sura 9/128-129 ONLY WITH ABU KHUZAIMA! But with other reciters as well! There were NONE as the records prove. Where were the others to make 9/128-129 tawatur??? Where..???

              If there are TWO such verses – AS IN sura at-tawba 9 VERSES 128 & 129, There could very well be OTHER SUCH words, verses and whole chapters inserted into the koran THAT ARE NOT TAWATUR OR MUTAWATIR!

              Just HOW Many more of such have been inserted – not by Allah or Jibril, but by the human manufacturers of the Quran?

              As if the koran could really benefit humanity? How can it do so, when..?-

              1. Sura 9/30 - blatantly curses Christians – for taking Jesus Christ as THE SON OF GOD, and Jews ALSO for doing that to “Ezra”. Vilification and baseless defamations ARE NOT A BENEFIT! Especially when they’re all baseless and LIES.

              2. sura 9/29 Sanctions and commands for attacks and killings upon the “people of the Book” ie – Christians and Jews BY MUSLIMS just FOR NOT BELIEVING in muhamed, his Allah and koran “FIGHT ie KILL (Qatala’) against the People of the Book WHO DO NOT BELIEVE in Allah..” (and islam obviously)..

              These people of the Book were not fighting against muslims. They were ONLY refusing to believe in the lies of Muhamed and islam! That was enough to get them killed! What a non-blessing to Humanity..

              The justification that islam and muslims “only fight in self-defence” here is destroyed and demolished.

              The killing against them only "stops" when these people of the book pay the Poll Tax called JIZYA - which is really a bribe and protection money so they will not BE KILLED, as demanded by the pernicious Quran.

              3. Sura 4/3 – Muslim men can happily take four wives, while the women can only have 1 husband each.

              Just HOW IS THAT a benefit to humanity?? Today, polygamy is shown to be outdated and a curse on family life.

              Sura 4/3 – Muslim men CAN ALSO have sex with the females “that their right hand possess”! This shameless permission is valid even today. These are captives of war or kept women or even single women who work for their perverted Muslim male bosses.

              Don’t these sex perverts just love this ayat sura 4/3 that permit them free sex with such kept women?!? – these are NOT their 4 official wives..but all their unofficial kept women of muslim men that the koran favors with such “rights”

              JUST HOW CAN Point 3. Above ever be a benefit to humanity???

              4. Sura 4/34 – Muslim men MUST BEAT THEIR so-called “DISOBEDIENT WIVES How can that ever be a benefit to women – who make up one-half of Humanity?

              Verse 34 says (of muslim men dealing with ‘offending wives’): “you may admonish them..refuse to share beds with them AND BEAT THEM..” in Arabic the word is ‘daraba’ which the Pickthall koran translates as “SCOURGE them

              JUST HOW CAN Point 4 above from sura 4/34 EVER BE a “benefit to humanity”???

              Going by these koran verses ALONE and the criteria of “benefitting humanity” THE KORAN HAS FAILED MISERABLY AND horribly – It can never be of ANY benefit whatsoever, let alone any blessing to any one in the world.

              KINDLY ANSWER The Questions posed to you above, Siam?




              Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
              So, now you admit – and confirm that the qiraats (koran ‘recitings’) MUST be “mutawatir” for the koran to be authentic. That was what I said all along in my last 2-3 posts. It does not only apply to hadith like u were implying.

              HOWEVER, there are valid hadith proofs that there are Koran verses and ayats THAT WERE NOT TAWATUR Nor Mutawatir (“wide spread and well known through multiple lines of transmission”) THAT are in the Koran.
              The fath al-bari reports :

              “I found the last verse of sura al Tawba in the possession of Abu Khuzaima al Ansari, having found it WITH NO ONE ELSE, ‘There has now come to you…’ to the end of the sura.

              - p.119, Ahmad b.Ali b. Muhd.Asqalani, ibn Hajar, “Fath al Bari,” 13 vols. Cairo, 1939/1348 vol.9, p.9 - The Commentary of Sahih al-Bukhari’s hadith.

              This is an example of a verse that IS NON-TAWATUR ie. Not Mutawatir whasoever. Sura 9/128,129 were ONLY FOUND With Abu Khuzaima and nobody else. Its provenance and reliability is therefore doubted and invalidated by the tawatur criterion!

              And YET it became a Quran verse in spite of not complying with and defying the orthodox criteria of mutawatir – which 9/128 & 129 is clearly not tawatur as recorded by al-Bukhari himself!


              Dr. Shady H. Nasser considers this as proof of non-tawatur verses in the Quran, inserted unscrupulously by MAN and not by God for sure.

              If the so-called “whole community had memorised the koran” like you propagandize, they won’t find sura 9/128-129 ONLY WITH ABU KHUZAIMA! But with other reciters as well! There were NONE as the records prove. Where were the others to make 9/128-129 tawatur??? Where..???

              If there are TWO such verses – AS IN sura at-tawba 9 VERSES 128 & 129, There could very well be OTHER SUCH words, verses and whole chapters inserted into the koran THAT ARE NOT TAWATUR OR MUTAWATIR!
              Just HOW Many more of such have been inserted – not by Allah or Jibril, but by the human manufacturers of the Quran?

              As if the koran could really benefit humanity? How can it do so, when..?-

              1. Sura 9/30 - blatantly curses Christians – for taking Jesus Christ as THE SON OF GOD, and Jews ALSO for doing that to “Ezra”. Vilification and baseless defamations ARE NOT A BENEFIT! Especially when they’re all baseless and LIES.

              2. sura 9/29 Sanctions and commands for attacks and killings upon the “people of the Book” ie – Christians and Jews BY MUSLIMS just FOR NOT BELIEVING in muhamed, his Allah and koran “FIGHT ie KILL (Qatala’) against the People of the Book WHO DO NOT BELIEVE in Allah..” (and islam obviously)..

              These people of the Book were not fighting against muslims. They were ONLY refusing to believe in the lies of Muhamed and islam! That was enough to get them killed! What a non-blessing to Humanity..
              The justification that islam and muslims “only fight in self-defence” here is destroyed and demolished.

              The killing against them only "stops" when these people of the book pay the Poll Tax called JIZYA - which is really a bribe and protection money so they will not BE KILLED, as demanded by the pernicious Quran.


              3. Sura 4/3 – Muslim men can happily take four wives, while the women can only have 1 husband each.

              Just HOW IS THAT a benefit to humanity?? Today, polygamy is shown to be outdated and a curse on family life.

              Sura 4/3 – Muslim men CAN ALSO have sex with the females “that their right hand possess”! This shameless permission is valid even today. These are captives of war or kept women or even single women who work for their perverted Muslim male bosses.

              Don’t these sex perverts just love this ayat sura 4/3 that permit them free sex with such kept women?!? – these are NOT their 4 official wives..but all their unofficial kept women of muslim men that the koran favors with such “rights”

              JUST HOW CAN Point 3. Above ever be a benefit to humanity???

              4. Sura 4/34 – Muslim men
              MUST BEAT THEIR so-called “DISOBEDIENT WIVES How can that ever be a benefit to women – who make up one-half of Humanity?

              Verse 34 says (of muslim men dealing with ‘offending wives’): “you may admonish them..refuse to share beds with them AND BEAT THEM..” in Arabic the word is ‘daraba’ which the Pickthall koran translates as “SCOURGE them

              JUST HOW CAN Point 4 above from sura 4/34 EVER BE a “benefit to humanity”???

              Going by these koran verses ALONE and the criteria of “benefitting humanity” THE KORAN HAD FAILED MISERABLY AND horribly – It can never be of ANY benefit whatsoever, let alone any blessing to any one
              in the world.


              Shame on you Siam, if you can find any excuses for the above curses on humanity from your ‘beautiful Quran’…! What a crazy & pretentious farce it is in all reality.







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