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  • #76
    Originally posted by Trucker View Post



    There was no precedent established by Christ, the Apostles, or the early Church for the use of any violence in enforcing Christian doctrines or beliefs. Nor do the Christian scriptures support any use of force to impose one's Biblical understanding onto anyone. The Same cannot be said for Islam. .
    I've noted this before. Unlike Islam, which requires forced conversion, for Christians to do so violates the teachings of Christ.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #77

      Every since June 2020, Dr. Yasir Qadhi refused to, or couldn't, give a satisfactory answer and reply to Mohd.Hijab - his muslim missionary counterpart, Muslims have clammed and shut up from responding to questions about the 'preservation of the koran' which, in fact is very dubious and doubtful.

      The traditional and standard narrative of the Koran HAS HOLES IN IT! So admitted sheikh Y. Qadhi - the intellectual from Houston, Texas.

      Here is the YouTube clip that explains Qadhi's reluctance to confirm the perfect preservation of islam's Koran, enjoy, and we can discuss this subject without fear or favor here!

      Here, Dr.Jay Smith analyses an interview between Y.Qadhi and Mohd.Hijab, an aggressive muslim evangelist and da'i. The outcome is very unsatisfactory to M.Hijab who kept pressing Qadhi for a clear answer which Qadhi kept resisting and even waffles many times.

      https://youtu.be/vstGbZkjUcw

      Eastern muslim scholars are already embracing western scholastic conclusions about the Qiraat, ahruf, masahif and other aspects of koranic analysis and studies.

      In the tradition of Muslims Ali Dashti and even ibn Khaldun, there are brave modern muslim scholars who are unsure of the preservation and reliability of their Koran AND are saying so, themselves.

      Cheers.

      Comment


      • #78
        Even the well known Muslim intellectuals and researchers into “Koranic preservation” admit such a claim is rather impossible to prove factually and that “the standard narrative has holes in it.”

        This is the narrative of proper and perfect Koranic preservation. Which then turns out finally into a myth.

        Dr. Yasir Qadhi of Houston Texas, himself admits in his lectures that the Koran’s qiraats and ahruf have differences, not only in readings (recitings) but also in whole letters and words.

        Dr. Shady Nasser is more straightforward in his lecture and admits that the readings / qiraats have different VOCABULARY, sentences, words structure and recitings. Such different vocabulary and words only mean differences in meanings in the same verses & passages.

        He also disclosed that during one of the stages of Koranic canonization, seven qiraats / styles were chosen arbitrarily from 40-50 different ones by ibn Mujahid in 936 A.D.

        Then, over 490 years later in 1429 AD, another three qiraats were further taken from the remaining unchosen styles by ibn al-Jazari who conducted the Koran’s third canonization. Making a total of TEN different qiraats. Which one(s) of the above cherry-picked ones is/are actually, the authentic & original Koran “sent down to Muhamed”??

        Why were seven, and then ten chosen over the fifty pre-existing DIFFERENT readings & qiraats? Did ANY of these 2 canonizers follow a divine order or authenticated guidelines to select these 7, then 10 variant qiraats over the OTHER 40-plus to ensure real originality? What’s so special of these 10+ selected qiraat over the other 30-40 qiraat that did NOT get chosen?

        These points were brought to public attention by Dr.Shady Nasser, a Muslim scholar at Harvard and NOT by a westener, non-muslim "kafir" or infidel in Muslims' eyes!

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
          Even the well known Muslim intellectuals and researchers into “Koranic preservation” admit such a claim is rather impossible to prove factually and that “the standard narrative has holes in it.”

          This is the narrative of proper and perfect Koranic preservation. Which then turns out finally into a myth.

          Dr. Yasir Qadhi of Houston Texas, himself admits in his lectures that the Koran’s qiraats and ahruf have differences, not only in readings (recitings) but also in whole letters and words.

          Dr. Shady Nasser is more straightforward in his lecture and admits that the readings / qiraats have different VOCABULARY, sentences, words structure and recitings. Such different vocabulary and words only mean differences in meanings in the same verses & passages.

          He also disclosed that during one of the stages of Koranic canonization, seven qiraats / styles were chosen arbitrarily from 40-50 different ones by ibn Mujahid in 936 A.D.

          Then, over 490 years later in 1429 AD, another three qiraats were further taken from the remaining unchosen styles by ibn al-Jazari who conducted the Koran’s third canonization. Making a total of TEN different qiraats. Which one(s) of the above cherry-picked ones is/are actually, the authentic & original Koran “sent down to Muhamed”??

          Why were seven, and then ten chosen over the fifty pre-existing DIFFERENT readings & qiraats? Did ANY of these 2 canonizers follow a divine order or authenticated guidelines to select these 7, then 10 variant qiraats over the OTHER 40-plus to ensure real originality? What’s so special of these 10+ selected qiraat over the other 30-40 qiraat that did NOT get chosen?

          These points were brought to public attention by Dr.Shady Nasser, a Muslim scholar at Harvard and NOT by a westener, non-muslim "kafir" or infidel in Muslims' eyes!

          Sura 16/103 claims the Koran was ‘revealed in “clear (or mubin) Arabic,”’ well, the seven, ten and then fourteen and even MORE qiraats / recitings – up to fifty recitations shows the flawed reasoning of that Koranic claim. Hahahaha, “clear” does not even BEGIN TO shed light on the darkness of these multiple qiraats or readings of your koran.

          There is nothing clear whatsoever when Muslims read & recited the same verses of the Koran IN FIFTY DIFFERENT WAYS. This shows up clearly when the grammarian Ibn al-Jazari disagreed with ibn Mujahid’s selective renderings of 7 qiraats and after 480 years, selected additional qiraats to increase the “standard readings” to 10 qiraats.

          Then came along another scholar cum grammarian later to standardize another 4 more so-called sound qiraats making it 14 standard recitings! This shows great confusion among all the grammarians and muslim theologians over 8 centuries in the Islamic calendar.

          Are all these 14 the styles – or the 50 qiraats in the first century of Islam, found together in the ummul Kitab “Mother of the Book” or the so-called “lauh mahfuz” / ‘protected tablet’ next to the throne of Allah from whence the Koran came down to Muhamed??

          Muslim academic Dr. Shady Nasser from Harvard university, gave a lecture at the University of Oregon that throws light on this question.

          This is the full video recording of his lecture there.

          https://islamicinitiative.uoregon.edu/projects/

          It gets very interesting from the 13:30 time stamp onwards, where this sunni muslim scholar says:

          1) there is a nearly 300 years gap between the first collection under caliph Uthman and the standardization under grammarian ibn Mujahid.

          2) the first 200 years of islam’s “formative period” from 632 AD onwards is REALLY A BLANK. Nobody really knows what and how anything actually developed in Islam and its followers in this 200 year period. Due to the absence of ANY proper, written records that can be reliably verified by researchers and historians.

          3) From 14:40 onwards, Shady Nasser tells us that ibn Mujahid in 936 A.D., chose 7 qiraats over 40-50 different ones that were floating around then, as the “standard recitings/readings/qiraats” to form the basis of reading the Koran. This is 300 years after Muhamed’s death (in 632).

          4) Nasser tells us that the historical records document that ibn Mujahid got the muslims to submit to his qiraat selections by devious and forceful methods. 15:03 onwards, Nasser says that ibn mujahid used his political and court connections to force the Muslims to comply and submit to his 7 qiraats standard!


          He got the courts to imprison and punish those who preferred OTHER recitings over his seven qiraat!

          What a tyrannical way to force other qiraats out from the standard Koran recitation. And desperate TOO! LOL!!


          5) From 15:50, Nasser mentions the intervention of another scholar - ibn al-jazari in 1429 AD, 480 years later to add 3 more qiraats as additional standard ones!

          25:50 onwards he asks disturbing questions for muslims on the variations in the recitings.

          Dr. Nasser admits there were not merely style differences of reading the 10 or 14 qiraats, BUT there were also differences in consonants, VOCABULARY and Grammar between those “official qiraats”and readings.

          Obviously, this meant all those differences in vocabulary point to different meanings of the same passages in the Koran. Can they ALL be correct and hold the true meaning SIMULTANEOUSLY?

          What a mess all this must be in the “Mother of the Book” per sura 13/39.. LOL! The koran is an unworthy book to follow...Obviously!


          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post


            Sura 16/103 claims the Koran was ‘revealed in “clear (or mubin) Arabic,”’ well, the seven, ten and then fourteen and even MORE qiraats / recitings – up to fifty recitations shows the flawed reasoning of that Koranic claim. Hahahaha, “clear” does not even BEGIN TO shed light on the darkness of these multiple qiraats or readings of your koran.

            There is nothing clear whatsoever when Muslims read & recited the same verses of the Koran IN FIFTY DIFFERENT WAYS. This shows up clearly when the grammarian Ibn al-Jazari disagreed with ibn Mujahid’s selective renderings of 7 qiraats and after 480 years, selected additional qiraats to increase the “standard readings” to 10 qiraats.

            Then came along another scholar cum grammarian later to standardize another 4 more so-called sound qiraats making it 14 standard recitings! This shows great confusion among all the grammarians and muslim theologians over 8 centuries in the Islamic calendar.

            Are all these 14 the styles – or the 50 qiraats in the first century of Islam, found together in the ummul Kitab “Mother of the Book” or the so-called “lauh mahfuz” / ‘protected tablet’ next to the throne of Allah from whence the Koran came down to Muhamed??

            Muslim academic Dr. Shady Nasser from Harvard university, gave a lecture at the University of Oregon that throws light on this question.

            This is the full video recording of his lecture there.

            https://islamicinitiative.uoregon.edu/projects/

            It gets very interesting from the 13:30 time stamp onwards, where this sunni muslim scholar says:

            1) there is a nearly 300 years gap between the first collection under caliph Uthman and the standardization under grammarian ibn Mujahid.

            2) the first 200 years of islam’s “formative period” from 632 AD onwards is REALLY A BLANK. Nobody really knows what and how anything actually developed in Islam and its followers in this 200 year period. Due to the absence of ANY proper, written records that can be reliably verified by researchers and historians.

            3) From 14:40 onwards, Shady Nasser tells us that ibn Mujahid in 936 A.D., chose 7 qiraats over 40-50 different ones that were floating around then, as the “standard recitings/readings/qiraats” to form the basis of reading the Koran. This is 300 years after Muhamed’s death (in 632).

            4) Nasser tells us that the historical records document that ibn Mujahid got the muslims to submit to his qiraat selections by devious and forceful methods. 15:03 onwards, Nasser says that ibn mujahid used his political and court connections to force the Muslims to comply and submit to his 7 qiraats standard!


            He got the courts to imprison and punish those who preferred OTHER recitings over his seven qiraat!

            What a tyrannical way to force other qiraats out from the standard Koran recitation. And desperate TOO! LOL!!


            5) From 15:50, Nasser mentions the intervention of another scholar - ibn al-jazari in 1429 AD, 480 years later to add 3 more qiraats as additional standard ones!

            25:50 onwards he asks disturbing questions for muslims on the variations in the recitings.

            Dr. Nasser admits there were not merely style differences of reading the 10 or 14 qiraats, BUT there were also differences in consonants, VOCABULARY and Grammar between those “official qiraats”and readings.

            Obviously, this meant all those differences in vocabulary point to different meanings of the same passages in the Koran. Can they ALL be correct and hold the true meaning SIMULTANEOUSLY?

            What a mess all this must be in the “Mother of the Book” per sura 13/39.. LOL! The koran is an unworthy book to follow...Obviously!

            There are scholarly materials available on the Net written by Dr.Shady H. Nasser from BRILL - a MUSLIM Quranic and manuscript historical-critical scholar, you can download these PDFs for free and/or pay for download. Excellent stuff that exposes the evolution of the Koran in contradiction of muslim propogandists' lame and false polemics claiming "perfect preservation of the Koran" -

            https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/sh...r_bf_22.07.pdf

            "The Second Canonization of the Quran" -- https://brill.com/view/title/55138

            "The Transmission of the Variant Readings of the Qurʾān" - https://brill.com/view/title/22618

            Any objection from Muslims that textual sceptics and critics of the Quran are mostly non-Muslims who do not understand the Koran properly, are now soundly debunked and dismissed as not deserving any merit.

            The Quran and its transmission is shown to be not preserved properly at all and is an unreliable source of factual information to guide knowledge and faith.

            Comment

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