Announcement

Collapse

Islam Guidelines

Theists only.

This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to Islam. This forum is generally for theists only, and is not the area for debate between atheists and theists. Non-theist may not post here without first obtaining permission from the moderator of this forum. Granting of such permission is subject to Moderator discretion - and may be revoked if the Moderator feels that the poster is not keeping with the spirit of the World Religions Department.



Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Hmmmmmmmm ...

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    As you say, the concept is "grounded" in the qur'an, but as Trucker has pointed out the word itself is not contained in the qur'an. That isn't "complicated" at all.
    The "word" is in the Quran---its in different grammatical form.

    I don't like grammar in any language---but will try to explain....(please remember that Arabic and English are different in their grammatical rules and language structures.)

    In English---the word GO is a verb.
    past tense of "go" is "went"
    present participle is "going"
    past participle is "gone"

    A sentence that uses "went" (past tense of "go") will not have the letters g and o (go) that make up the word "go"---but its simply because of the rules of English grammar

    Note:- The Quranic use of "ahad" (unique) and "wahid." (one) as attributes of God serve a deeper purpose than just grammatical form. It is a very important theological principle that God is one AND unique.
    https://medium.com/@UnklZaki/of-wahi...d-87d4b775490b

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by siam View Post

      The "word" is in the Quran---its in different grammatical form.

      I don't like grammar in any language---but will try to explain....(please remember that Arabic and English are different in their grammatical rules and language structures.)

      In English---the word GO is a verb.
      past tense of "go" is "went"
      present participle is "going"
      past participle is "gone"

      A sentence that uses "went" (past tense of "go") will not have the letters g and o (go) that make up the word "go"---but its simply because of the rules of English grammar

      Note:- The Quranic use of "ahad" (unique) and "wahid." (one) as attributes of God serve a deeper purpose than just grammatical form. It is a very important theological principle that God is one AND unique.
      https://medium.com/@UnklZaki/of-wahi...d-87d4b775490b
      IOW, the word Tawheed is not in the qur'an.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by siam View Post

        The "word" is in the Quran---its in different grammatical form.

        I don't like grammar in any language---but will try to explain....(please remember that Arabic and English are different in their grammatical rules and language structures.)

        In English---the word GO is a verb.
        past tense of "go" is "went"
        present participle is "going"
        past participle is "gone"

        A sentence that uses "went" (past tense of "go") will not have the letters g and o (go) that make up the word "go"---but its simply because of the rules of English grammar

        Note:- The Quranic use of "ahad" (unique) and "wahid." (one) as attributes of God serve a deeper purpose than just grammatical form. It is a very important theological principle that God is one AND unique.
        https://medium.com/@UnklZaki/of-wahi...d-87d4b775490b
        Merrily you dance around, dance around, dance around ...... repeat to infinity!!!

        Why do you continue with your charade??? Have you lied to yourself so long you really cannot see the obvious when it's right in front of your nose? Denial is not in Egypt .... denial resides in the mind of the deceived and in in the words of those who would deceiver..


        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          IOW, the word Tawheed is not in the qur'an.
          ...That would depend on the definition of "word" and there is no agreed upon definition of this term because world languages (construction and word-formation) are so varied.
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word

          An English language definition of "word" cannot be used/imposed for a non-English language structure---that is just ignorant and arrogant.

          Therefore, one could say that in English language Tafsir (translation/exegesis) the "word" Tawheed does not appear---but in the Arabic Quran it is central....

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by siam View Post

            ...That would depend on the definition of "word" and there is no agreed upon definition of this term because world languages (construction and word-formation) are so varied.
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word

            An English language definition of "word" cannot be used/imposed for a non-English language structure---that is just ignorant and arrogant.

            Therefore, one could say that in English language Tafsir (translation/exegesis) the "word" Tawheed does not appear---but in the Arabic Quran it is central....
            Unadulterated sophistry.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by siam View Post

              ...That would depend on the definition of "word" and there is no agreed upon definition of this term because world languages (construction and word-formation) are so varied.
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word

              An English language definition of "word" cannot be used/imposed for a non-English language structure---that is just ignorant and arrogant.

              Therefore, one could say that in English language Tafsir (translation/exegesis) the "word" Tawheed does not appear---but in the Arabic Quran it is central....
              Ah, the old "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is" defense.

              This is pretty cut and dry. Either you can find the word Tawheed in the qur'an or you can't. And the fact is we can not, no matter how you keep spinning it.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • #67
                The Quran is not a dictionary---words do not need to appear in all their grammatical forms---(just to please you)----they need only appear in the form that is grammatically appropriate for that sentence.....

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by siam View Post
                  The Quran is not a dictionary---words do not need to appear in all their grammatical forms---(just to please you)----they need only appear in the form that is grammatically appropriate for that sentence.....
                  Either the word is or isn't contained in the qur'an. If it was you would have cited the sura and ayat where it could be found rather than continued to dance around and play games.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by siam View Post
                    The Quran is not a dictionary---words do not need to appear in all their grammatical forms---(just to please you)----they need only appear in the form that is grammatically appropriate for that sentence.....
                    Do you give dancing lessons? Free or fee??

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      Either the word is or isn't contained in the qur'an. If it was you would have cited the sura and ayat where it could be found rather than continued to dance around and play games.
                      play games---that might be so...that is...I have not taken the question very seriously. Tawheed being used, or not, in the Quran ---in that particular grammatical form---is not very relevant overall

                      what is interesting ---from a more philosophical perspective---is that the word "Islam" appears in the Quran. The root word is s-l-m from which is also derived the word "peace" (Salam). A person following Islam is muslim/Muslim (one who submits to God's law)---Technically, the opposite would actually be a "criminal"(Fajir/Fasiq)---one who goes against the law (and creates corruption)

                      Christians, Jews, (and Muslims) are referred to as "people of the Book" ahl al kitab---not ahl al Tawhid or Muwahidun (people of Unity/ monotheists)---even though polytheists (mushrikun) are mentioned in the Quran.

                      It seems to me that while Unity as a concept is central to the religion---the reason it is central is for the purpose of attaining peace--which is the main purpose for guidance from God to humanity. This is illustrated in the Quranic story of the "two sons of Adam" whose dispute led to bloodshed. Thus, guidance in the form of law, brought a means of peaceful dispute resolution for humanity.

                      So, while the theme/concept of "Unity" is central in the Quran (and plays an important part in ethico-moral foundations) ---even more important is the purpose/use for this theme/concept--- which is the attainment of PEACE.
                      Such particular use of Quranic terms discourages the focus on identity-formation (and therefore tribalism/parochialism) and instead turns the focus on human relations and the universal human goal of peace. (human relations =between humans and also with God)

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by siam View Post

                        play games---that might be so...that is...I have not taken the question very seriously. Tawheed being used, or not, in the Quran ---in that particular grammatical form---is not very relevant overall

                        what is interesting ---from a more philosophical perspective---is that the word "Islam" appears in the Quran. The root word is s-l-m from which is also derived the word "peace" (Salam). A person following Islam is muslim/Muslim (one who submits to God's law)---Technically, the opposite would actually be a "criminal"(Fajir/Fasiq)---one who goes against the law (and creates corruption)

                        Christians, Jews, (and Muslims) are referred to as "people of the Book" ahl al kitab---not ahl al Tawhid or Muwahidun (people of Unity/ monotheists)---even though polytheists (mushrikun) are mentioned in the Quran.

                        It seems to me that while Unity as a concept is central to the religion---the reason it is central is for the purpose of attaining peace--which is the main purpose for guidance from God to humanity. This is illustrated in the Quranic story of the "two sons of Adam" whose dispute led to bloodshed. Thus, guidance in the form of law, brought a means of peaceful dispute resolution for humanity.

                        So, while the theme/concept of "Unity" is central in the Quran (and plays an important part in ethico-moral foundations) ---even more important is the purpose/use for this theme/concept--- which is the attainment of PEACE.
                        Such particular use of Quranic terms discourages the focus on identity-formation (and therefore tribalism/parochialism) and instead turns the focus on human relations and the universal human goal of peace. (human relations =between humans and also with God)
                        This might be the key to why "reform" (Purists) movements such as Wahabism are such failures---by focusing on "Tawhid" as a means of identity-formation ---they actually fall into "Shirk" causing divisions, disputes and corruption. Instead if they had focused on "Islam" whose primary purpose is peace (for all of humanity) they would have had spiritual success......?....

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by siam View Post

                          play games---that might be so...that is...I have not taken the question very seriously.
                          Yet you still posted several responses pretending to addressing it and now finally admit you weren't making a serious attempt to answer the question and were just playing games.

                          I suspect that is your reaction pretty much whenever you respond to a claim that you make and can't back up.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Let us see if we can get some specifics from our resident Islamic polemicist.

                            Originally posted by siam View Post
                            play games---that might be so...that is...I have not taken the question very seriously. Tawheed being used, or not, in the Quran ---in that particular grammatical form---is not very relevant overall[
                            Just quote us one Quranic passage where the word "Tawheed" appears.

                            Originally posted by siam View Post
                            what is interesting ---from a more philosophical perspective---is that the word "Islam" appears in the Quran. The root word is s-l-m from which is also derived the word "peace" (Salam).
                            Really? Isn't it true the Arabic root word for Islam means submission?

                            Originally posted by siam View Post
                            A person following Islam is muslim/Muslim (one who submits to God's law)---
                            "God's law"? "God as defined how and by whom?

                            "Corruption" as defined by whom?

                            Originally posted by siam View Post
                            Christians, Jews, (and Muslims) are referred to as "people of the Book" ahl al kitab---not ahl al Tawhid or Muwahidun (people of Unity/ monotheists)---even though polytheists (mushrikun) are mentioned in the Quran.
                            Are you talking about the Christians as mentioned in Q.9::29??
                            29. Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyahwith willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. [The Noble Qur'an]
                            Tell us, sir.

                            Originally posted by siam View Post
                            It seems to me that while Unity as a concept is central to the religion---the reason it is central is for the purpose of attaining peace--which is the main purpose for guidance from God to humanity.
                            Define peace and God. please. Are you speaking of the Great I am God as revealed in and by the Scriptures or the Allah as allegedly revealed by one Muhammad?? [We already know but let's get it out in the open!!]

                            Originally posted by siam View Post
                            This is illustrated in the Quranic story of the "two sons of Adam" whose dispute led to bloodshed. Thus, guidance in the form of law, brought a means of peaceful dispute resolution for humanity.
                            What is illustrated in the way Biblical stories were plagiarized and corrupted!

                            Originally posted by siam View Post
                            So, while the theme/concept of "Unity" is central in the Quran (and plays an important part in ethico-moral foundations) ---even more important is the purpose/use for this theme/concept--- which is the attainment of PEACE.
                            "PEACE" as defined by sharia, Right??

                            Originally posted by siam View Post
                            Such particular use of Quranic terms discourages the focus on identity-formation (and therefore tribalism/parochialism) and instead turns the focus on human relations and the universal human goal of peace. (human relations =between humans and also with God)
                            Gobbledegook until/unless defined!!!

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Trucker View Post
                              Let us see if we can get some specifics from our resident Islamic polemicist.



                              Just quote us one Quranic passage where the word "Tawheed" appears.



                              Really? Isn't it true the Arabic root word for Islam means submission?



                              "God's law"? "God as defined how and by whom?

                              "Corruption" as defined by whom?



                              Are you talking about the Christians as mentioned in Q.9::29??

                              Tell us, sir.



                              Define peace and God. please. Are you speaking of the Great I am God as revealed in and by the Scriptures or the Allah as allegedly revealed by one Muhammad?? [We already know but let's get it out in the open!!]



                              What is illustrated in the way Biblical stories were plagiarized and corrupted!



                              "PEACE" as defined by sharia, Right??



                              Gobbledegook until/unless defined!!!
                              The so-called "Religion of Peace" that mandates conversion by the sword, declares that peace can only be obtained by submitting to Islam. Those lands that surrender are known as Dar al-Islam (or House of Islam, also sometimes referred to as Dar al-Salam or House of Peace) as opposed to Dar al-Harb (House of War -- lands not under Islamic dominion).

                              But if one looks at the areas that Islam has in its grasp you quickly see anything but peace. There is constant in-fighting among Muslims. Just look at the Iran-Iraq War that took place during the 1980s for example. The best estimates figure there were over 600,000 fatalities. Not very peaceful if you ask me.

                              And while it is true that there has been enumerable conflicts between Christian nations, Christians don't have the arrogant hubris to proclaim that the lands they control are by definition peaceful.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                The so-called "Religion of Peace" that mandates conversion by the sword, declares that peace can only be obtained by submitting to Islam. Those lands that surrender are known as Dar al-Islam (or House of Islam, also sometimes referred to as Dar al-Salam or House of Peace) as opposed to Dar al-Harb (House of War -- lands not under Islamic dominion).
                                All true..

                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                But if one looks at the areas that Islam has in its grasp you quickly see anything but peace. There is constant in-fighting among Muslims. Just look at the Iran-Iraq War that took place during the 1980s for example. The best estimates figure there were over 600,000 fatalities. Not very peaceful if you ask me.
                                One systemic problem with Islam is simply the difficulty in being Muslim enough.

                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                And while it is true that there has been enumerable conflicts between Christian nations, Christians don't have the arrogant hubris to proclaim that the lands they control are by definition peaceful.
                                There was no precedent established by Christ, the Apostles, or the early Church for the use of any violence in enforcing Christian doctrines or beliefs. Nor do the Christian scriptures support any use of force to impose one's Biblical understanding onto anyone. The Same cannot be said for Islam. .

                                Comment

                                widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
                                Working...
                                X