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  • #31

    Sure, Jesus Christ has overwhelmingly positive things to say and declared many things about Himself that are positive and true for all of humanity - from His time until today and for tomorrow, like:


    Matthew 11: 25 – 27: The Father – GOD is Revealed in the Son, Who Gives Rest to the Weary
    25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

    27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

    28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
    29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
    30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

    Luke 10: 21 – 22 Jesus Christ Gives Eternal Life to whoever He Chooses
    21 Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

    22 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

    23 Then he turned to his disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes that see what you see.
    24 For I tell you that many prophets and kings wanted to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.”


    Matthew 9: 1-7: Jesus Christ has the Authority to forgive Man’s sin
    1 Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2 Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.
    3 At this, some of the teachers of the Law said to themselves, “This fellow is blaspheming!”
    4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5 Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 6 But so that you might know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sin ...” Then he said to the paralytic, “Get up, take your mat and go home.”
    7 And the man got up and went home.

    Mark 2: 5-11 Jesus Himself wants everyone to know that He has the power to forgive anyone
    5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man,
    Son, your sins are forgiven.
    6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7“Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
    8 Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? 9 Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’? 10
    But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the man, 11“I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.” 12 He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this!”

    John 10: 25 – 28 Jesus Christ Gives Eternal Life to His Chosen & They shall Never Perish
    25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28
    I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

    John 14: 9 – 10 Whoever has seen and know Jesus Christ, has already seen and known God
    9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time?
    Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
    10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?

    John 14: 5 – 7 Jesus IS the Way, the Truth and the Life
    Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

    6 Jesus answered, “
    I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.





    Originally posted by siam View Post
    So give me positive stuff about Christianity....hopefully linked to your Bible....
    Any time in history and any geographical location is fine....

    Here is a start....(7 virtues)
    http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/documents...eadly_sins.pdf
    The Seven Deadly Sins Three Spiritual Sins
    1. Pride (spiritual sin)
    2. Envy (spiritual sin)
    3. Wrath (spiritual sin affected by body) Four Corporal Sins
    4. Accidia or Sloth (corporal sin)
    5. Avaricia/Cupiditas or Greed (corporal sin)
    6. Gluttony (corporal sin)
    7. Lust (corporal sin)

    The Seven Holy Virtues Three Spiritual (or Theological) Virtues
    1. Fides (Faith)
    2. Spes (Hope)
    3. Caritas (Charity) The Four Cardinal (or Pagan) Virtues
    4. Prudence
    5. Temperance
    6. Fortitude
    7. Justice

    Lets start with Faith---If Faith = reliance on God, then forced conversions indicate bad faith.
    (Mathew 6 :31-34)

    https://www.christianitytoday.com/hi...interview.html
    Augustine, the great bishop of Hippo in North Africa in the late fourth and early fifth century, was faced with a dissident sect, the Donatists. Augustine wanted to bring them back in the orthodox fold, and he agonized about whether it was permissible to use coercion to do so.
    Eventually he decided it was, and one biblical text that persuaded him was the parable of the great banquet (Luke 14:16-24). A rich man gives a feast, and when no one he invites shows up, he tells his servants to go out and "Compel people to come in."

    He is considered a Christian saint.

    Give me positive examples of faith in Christian history:---
    (U can use Mathew 6:31-34 as a criteria if u wish)
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...34&version=NIV
    31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

    Comment


    • #32
      Good job.

      However, I am not familiar with the NT---and my understanding of Christianity has many gaps in it.......
      Lists of verses without explanation or context is a bit confusing. Could you pick one and relate it to the subject of faith?
      Also---I gave a Christian definition of faith using a verse from Mathew---if you have your own version---please define it---and you may provide a relevant verse if you so choose....

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by siam View Post
        However, I am not familiar with the NT---and my understanding of Christianity has many gaps in it......
        So it would appear.

        Originally posted by siam View Post
        Lists of verses without explanation or context is a bit confusing. Could you pick one and relate it to the subject of faith?
        Uhhhhhh ... how strange that a believer in, and apparently a student of, the Qur'an would mention a lack of context!! What is the context in Quran passages without the Sunna and the Sira? Tell us sir. Especially considering the fact that according to experts in Classical Arabic fully 20% [that's one fifth!] of the Qur'an makes absolutely no sense at all !!!

        Originally posted by siam View Post
        Also---I gave a Christian definition of faith using a verse from Mathew---if you have your own version---please define it---and you may provide a relevant verse if you so choose....
        Here's a passage for you to seriously consider, sir:
        Mat 22:34 When the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they came together.
        Mat 22:35 And one of them, an expert in the law, asked a question to test Him:
        Mat 22:36 "Teacher, which command in the law is the greatest?"
        Mat 22:37 He said to him, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
        Mat 22:38 This is the greatest and most important command.
        Mat 22:39 The second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself.
        Mat 22:40 All the Law and the Prophets depend on these two commands."

        Before you say there is nothing in that passage to do with faith ask you self just how much fain would be required for a believer to live those commands while being severely persecuted over his/her faith! What is the context of the application of the passage? ALL TIME ALL PLACES WITH ALL PEOPLE, sir!!

        Is sharia based on those commands of the Messiah, sir??

        Note the passage does not say to love your fellow Muslim as you love yourself but persecute all others as does Islam!!! [Example: Q 9:29]

        Comment


        • #34
          @ Trucker

          Mat-22:34-40
          So your definition of "faith" is to love your lord and neighbor....?
          Then, do you feel that those Christians who do not do so---have lost their faith? if so, can they be called faithful Christians?
          for example---The "traditores" who advocated compromise with the (Roman) "State" and sacrificed to the Pagan gods and handed over their scriptures in order to escape persecution.....

          ...and what of the Donatists---those who refused to compromise and preferred martyrdom instead--where they the "real" faithful Christians?
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diocletianic_Persecution
          "While the persecution under Constantius was relatively light, there is no doubt about the force of the persecution in Maximian's domain. Its effects are recorded at Rome, Sicily, Spain, and in Africa[212]—indeed, Maximian encouraged particularly strict enforcement of the edict in Africa. Africa's political elite were insistent that the persecution be fulfilled,[213] and Africa's Christians, especially in Numidia, were equally insistent on resisting them. For the Numidians, to hand over scriptures was an act of terrible apostasy.[214] Africa had long been home to the Church of the Martyrs"

          what do you think?

          Comment


          • #35
            [QUOTE=siam;n1207373]Mat-22:34-40
            So your definition of "faith" is to love your lord and neighbor....?/QUOTE]

            No that is not my definition of faith, sir. Nor is that what I said. Obviously you misrepresent my words whether by design or otherwise.

            Get this straightened out and then we can go on to the rest of your comments..

            Comment


            • #36
              Every learned student of the Holy Bible knows the story of the Wedding feast, which is a Parable taught by the Lord Jesus Christ.

              And as a PARABLE, Jesus used this as an appropriate teaching Tool to communicate certain truths to His followers, disciples and the apostles and to enhance their understanding and learning of His teachings. Do NOT confuse yourself by conflating Jesus Christ’s PARABLEs with His Injunctions or commands.

              The co-called use of “compelling the others” - who were illustrated as being outside in the bushes and byways to come to attend the wedding dinner was only an illustration device used by Christ, & NEVER meant as a command nor as in injunction to force people against their will to attend, convert or follow!

              Every diligent and responsible student of the Bible knows this. We take what Jesus actually taught NOT what you claim about Augustine. Study the Scripture again..it is A PARABLE -not a command to "compel or force" people.

              The truth that Jesus Christ intended to convey by using this Parable of the wedding feast and “compelling” the outsiders to come to the dinner, signifies and illustrates one important fact.

              That He came at that time to invite and call not only the Jews to salvation (the blessings of the Feast) BUT His invitation extends to INCLUDES THE GENTILES AND NON-JEWS AS WELL.

              Even though Jesus may be a Jew, the mission and scope of Jesus Christ’s role extends far over and beyond Israel or the Jews only!
              This demolishes the Koranic theory that Jesus’ ministry and mission was limited or restricted to the Jews and Israel only. And the koran’s speculative guesswork that Jesus was not a global Messiah – but just for the Jewish people and Israel.

              This false Islamic theory mentioned in koran 3/49 ("Jesus was only sent to Israel") is destroyed by the parable that the Lord Jesus Christ taught in Luke 14:15-24. And in other Gospel verses like Matthew 24:14 and John 10: 16 “I have OTHER sheep that are not of this fold [ie. Israel], I MUST BRING THEM ALSO, and they will hear My voice and they will become one flock with one Shepherd [Jesus Christ]”






              Originally posted by siam View Post
              So give me positive stuff about Christianity....hopefully linked to your Bible....
              Any time in history and any geographical location is fine....

              Here is a start....(7 virtues)
              http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/documents...eadly_sins.pdf
              The Seven Deadly Sins Three Spiritual Sins
              1. Pride (spiritual sin)
              2. Envy (spiritual sin)
              3. Wrath (spiritual sin affected by body) Four Corporal Sins
              4. Accidia or Sloth (corporal sin)
              5. Avaricia/Cupiditas or Greed (corporal sin)
              6. Gluttony (corporal sin)
              7. Lust (corporal sin)

              The Seven Holy Virtues Three Spiritual (or Theological) Virtues
              1. Fides (Faith)
              2. Spes (Hope)
              3. Caritas (Charity) The Four Cardinal (or Pagan) Virtues
              4. Prudence
              5. Temperance
              6. Fortitude
              7. Justice

              Lets start with Faith---If Faith = reliance on God, then forced conversions indicate bad faith.
              (Mathew 6 :31-34)

              https://www.christianitytoday.com/hi...interview.html
              Augustine, the great bishop of Hippo in North Africa in the late fourth and early fifth century, was faced with a dissident sect, the Donatists. Augustine wanted to bring them back in the orthodox fold, and he agonized about whether it was permissible to use coercion to do so.
              Eventually he decided it was, and one biblical text that persuaded him was the parable of the great banquet (Luke 14:16-24). A rich man gives a feast, and when no one he invites shows up, he tells his servants to go out and "Compel people to come in."

              He is considered a Christian saint.

              Give me positive examples of faith in Christian history:---
              (U can use Mathew 6:31-34 as a criteria if u wish)
              https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...34&version=NIV
              31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

              Comment


              • #37
                Dan

                What is your definition of Faith?

                I can assent to your explanation of the feast....but.....
                Are you suggesting that St Augustine of Hippo did not know his NT? or that he "misused" it for convenience/expediency?
                What is your stance on the controversy---should Priests who have committed a "sin" be allowed to remain in Church leadership positions or should they be disqualified? The Church position was apparently that they should remain---the Donatists disagreed...how does that understanding work out in issues today when Priests have committed "sins" (sexual misconduct of the Catholic Church)...?.....
                Does your NT have any moral advice/stance on the matter?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Siam, Whether or not St.Augustine knew his NT, is besides the point. We do not look to men or people like them to learn what Jesus Christ taught.

                  We rather go to the Source HImself - Jesus the Messiah and what he already said and did in the Gospel record. We have his words on record, even before your koran came on the scene!

                  The Gospel records Jesus Christ teaching the lesson that He was not just a 'prophet to Israel' but to the whole world that includes the Gentile, non-Jewish peoples outside of Israel.

                  THAT was the lesson of this parable. He did not teach us to go 'force people to believe in Him'.

                  Clerical / clergy Misconduct happens in ALL religions. Monks, Imams, ustazs, qadhis etc all invariably commit sins.

                  About Faith, here is the passage of the NT I quoted in my reply to you above, but you didnt seem to get:

                  Mark 2: 5-11 Jesus Himself wants everyone to know that He has the power to forgive anyone -
                  5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

                  6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7“Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?

                  8 Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? 9 Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’?

                  10 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the man, 11“I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.” 12 He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this!”

                  John 10: 25 – 28 Jesus Christ Gives Eternal Life to His Chosen & They shall Never Perish
                  25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

                  27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

                  28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

                  The Faith was what Jesus looked for, before He healed the paralyzed man (above) . When He saw it, Jesus forgave the sins of the paralytic first before healing him. Even Muhamed could never forgave any one the way that Jesus Christ DID!

                  Why did Christ forgive the peoples' sins? Unless He had the divine power and authority to do so?

                  That's why in Mark 2:10, Jesus declared publically: "I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.”

                  By forgiving their sins, Christ ensured their spiritual salvation in the afterlife. By healing their physical disease and handicap, Jesus restored their dignity, worth and functionality in this life.

                  That is based on true faith.




                  .



                  Originally posted by siam View Post
                  Dan

                  What is your definition of Faith?

                  I can assent to your explanation of the feast....but.....
                  Are you suggesting that St Augustine of Hippo did not know his NT? or that he "misused" it for convenience/expediency?
                  What is your stance on the controversy---should Priests who have committed a "sin" be allowed to remain in Church leadership positions or should they be disqualified? The Church position was apparently that they should remain---the Donatists disagreed...how does that understanding work out in issues today when Priests have committed "sins" (sexual misconduct of the Catholic Church)...?.....
                  Does your NT have any moral advice/stance on the matter?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    I figure this might be a good place to post something I had written earlier about what Christians mean by faith, specifically in contrast to the concept of blind faith



                    You are confusing having faith for what is known as "blind faith" or blind acceptance. They are not synonyms.

                    An actual definition for the type of faith we talk about can be found in an old edition of Noah Webster's Dictionary

                    FAITH: 3. In theology, the assent of the mind or understanding to the truth of what God has revealed. Simple belief of the scriptures, of the being and perfections of God, and of the existence, character and doctrines of Christ, founded on the testimony of the sacred writers, is called historical or speculative faith; a faith little distinguished from the belief of the existence and achievements of Alexander or of Caesar.


                    The "blind faith" concept that atheists always assume that we mean is actually not biblical. Pistis, the Greek word translated as "faith," actually is defined as a conviction based on the facts. "Without faith, it is impossible to please God” (Heb 11:6) We couldn't please God unless our minds can accurately discern the facts.

                    Our faith is based upon the evidence provided. Paul praised the people of Berea in northern Greece because they "received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so" (Acts 17:11). For looking at the evidence and seeing for themselves that it was true -- not accepting it blindly.

                    Paul even explicitly told us that we should check to see if something is true or not which is the exact opposite of blind faith.

                    Scripture Verse: 1 Thessalonians 5:21


                    but test everything; hold fast what is good.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    Likewise John gives very similar advice - to test things to see if they are true or not and not to blindly accept what you're told

                    Scripture Verse: 1 John 4:1


                    Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    In fact Proverbs 14:15 demonstrates that the Bible argues directly against blind faith when it informs us that "The simple believes everything, but the prudent gives thought to his steps."

                    Christ offered evidence that He had Risen and didn't demand blind acceptance:

                    Scripture Verse: Luke 24:38-39

                    And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    And as Paul explains, the material body of the resurrected Son of God is what Christianity hinges on. If Christ has not really raised from the dead, then faith is in vain.

                    Scripture Verse: I Cor. 15:13-14

                    But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    And as Peter puts it

                    Scripture Verse: II Peter 1:16

                    For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    This is what we Christians mean by having faith. A faith that is rooted in reality and truth, and not blind faith.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by siam View Post
                      What is your definition of Faith?[/QUOTE

                      Quote] https://www.dictionary.com/browse/faith?s=t

                      [1] noun

                      confidence or trust in a person or thing:faith in another's ability.
                      belief that is not based on proof:He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
                      belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion:the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
                      belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.:to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
                      a system of religious belief:the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
                      the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.:Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
                      SEE MORE

                      [2] [From Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Dictionary]

                      Faith
                      FAITH - a belief in or confident attitude toward God, involving commitment to His will for one's life.
                      According to Hebrews 11, faith was already present in the experience of many people in the Old Testament as a key element of their spiritual lives. In this chapter, the various heroes of the Old Testament (Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and Moses) are described as living by faith. In addition, the Old Testament itself makes the same point. Abraham "believed in the Lord" (Gen_15:6); the Israelites "believed" (Exo_4:31; Exo_14:31); and the prophet Habakkuk taught that "the just shall live by his faith" (Hab_2:4).
                      In the New Testament, "faith" covers various levels of personal commitment. Mere intellectual agreement to a truth is illustrated in Jas_2:19, where even demons are said to believe that there is one God. Obviously, however, they are not saved by this type of belief. Genuine saving faith is a personal attachment to Christ, best thought of as a combination of two ideas-reliance on Christ and commitment to Him. Saving faith involves personally depending on the finished work of Christ's sacrifice as the only basis for forgiveness of sin and entrance into heaven. But saving faith is also a personal commitment of one's life to following Christ in obedience to His commands: "I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day" (2Ti_1:12).
                      Faith is part of the Christian life from beginning to end. As the instrument by which the gift of salvation is received (Eph_2:8-9), faith is thus distinct from the basis of salvation, which is grace, and from the outworking of salvation, which is good works. The apostle Paul declared that salvation is through faith, not through keeping the law (Gal_2:16).
                      Finally, in the New Testament, faith can refer to the teachings of the Bible, the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 3). In modern times, faith has been weakened in meaning so that some people use it to mean self-confidence. But in the Bible, true faith is confidence in God or Christ, not in oneself.
                      Most of us go to sleep having faith we will wake up.

                      Most of us have faith our cars will take us to work every day and bring us back home. Otherwise we'd made other arangements.

                      Most of us have faith our home will still be there when we get back from whatever and wherever.

                      We most of us do many things in the course of a day that we probably wouldn't do were it not for faith.

                      And we don't even pause for a second thinking about it.

                      There are all kinds of faith, sir.[C

                      Another poster has already mentioned blind faith.

                      Think about it.


                      Originally posted by siam View Post
                      Are you suggesting that St Augustine of Hippo did not know his NT? or that he "misused" it for convenience/expediency?
                      What is your stance on the controversy---should Priests who have committed a "sin" be allowed to remain in Church leadership positions or should they be disqualified? The Church position was apparently that they should remain---the Donatists disagreed
                      How many people do you know that are free from sin?????

                      Originally posted by siam View Post
                      .how does that understanding work out in issues today when Priests have committed "sins" (sexual misconduct of the Catholic Church)...?.....
                      Does your NT have any moral advice/stance on the matter?
                      Yeah .....
                      Joh 8:7 When they persisted in asking him, he stood up straight and replied, "Whoever among you is guiltless may be the first to throw a stone at her." [HCSB]

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                        Siam, Whether or not St.Augustine knew his NT, is besides the point. We do not look to men or people like them to learn what Jesus Christ taught.

                        We rather go to the Source HImself - Jesus the Messiah and what he already said and did in the Gospel record. We have his words on record, even before your koran came on the scene!

                        The Gospel records Jesus Christ teaching the lesson that He was not just a 'prophet to Israel' but to the whole world that includes the Gentile, non-Jewish peoples outside of Israel.

                        THAT was the lesson of this parable. He did not teach us to go 'force people to believe in Him'.

                        Clerical / clergy Misconduct happens in ALL religions. Monks, Imams, ustazs, qadhis etc all invariably commit sins.

                        About Faith, here is the passage of the NT I quoted in my reply to you above, but you didnt seem to get:

                        Mark 2: 5-11 Jesus Himself wants everyone to know that He has the power to forgive anyone -
                        ...

                        The Faith was what Jesus looked for, before He healed the paralyzed man (above) . When He saw it, Jesus forgave the sins of the paralytic first before healing him. Even Muhamed could never forgave any one the way that Jesus Christ DID!

                        Why did Christ forgive the peoples' sins? Unless He had the divine power and authority to do so?

                        That's why in Mark 2:10, Jesus declared publically: "I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.”

                        By forgiving their sins, Christ ensured their spiritual salvation in the afterlife. By healing their physical disease and handicap, Jesus restored their dignity, worth and functionality in this life.

                        That is based on true faith.
                        So your definition of Faith = belief in healing/magic that is a consequence of "forgiveness for sins"...?....
                        Does this imply that a healthy person is blessed of God/Jesus forgiveness but an ill/handicapped person is not forgiven?
                        If so, what happens if a Non-Christian is healthy? Does this mean God/Jesus has blessed him with his forgiveness regardless of his religious label? or is the health of this person the "work of the devil"?

                        I completely agree that human beings make mistakes, some commit crimes.
                        So---according to your understanding of Christian ethics/morality---what should happen to a person who commits a sin or a crime?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Rogue06
                          Scripture Verse: 1 John 4:1

                          Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

                          -------------------------------------------------
                          interesting.
                          I completely agree with the sentiment that blind faith is detrimental.

                          So how would you propose to test if belief/faith in Jesus as Son of God is "from God"?

                          And if "faith" needs a test---what is your opinion of the ethics/morality of Inquisitions and the witch trials conducted by the Church? It was believed that the power of the witches "came from the Devil/Satan and apparently they had to prove otherwise....

                          https://www.theguardian.com/society/...t-market-share
                          They reach their conclusion after drawing on analyses of new data covering more than 43,000 people tried for witchcraft in 21 European countries.

                          The data shows that witch-hunts took off only after the Reformation in 1517, following the rapid spread of Protestantism. Leeson and Russ argue that, for the first time in history, the Reformation presented large numbers of Christians with a religious choice: stick with the old church or switch to the new one. “And when churchgoers have religious choice, churches must compete,” they say.

                          The phenomenon reached its zenith between 1555 and 1650, the years when there was “peak competition for Christian consumers”, evidenced by the Catholic Counter-Reformation, during which Catholic officials pushed back against Protestant successes in converting Catholics to the new ways of worshipping throughout much of Europe.

                          The new analysis suggests that the witch craze was most intense where Catholic-Protestant rivalry was strongest. Churches picked key regional battlegrounds, they say, much like the Democrat and Republican parties in the US now focus on key states during the presidential election.

                          This explains why Germany, ground zero for the Reformation, laid claim to nearly 40% of all witchcraft prosecutions in Europe. Scotland, where different strains of Protestantism were in competition, saw the second highest level of witch-hunts, with a total of 3,563 people tried.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Trucker

                            So your definition of faith is to believe that the sacrifice opens the way to forgiveness of sins and entrance into heaven
                            therefore ...
                            Joh 8:7 When they persisted in asking him, he stood up straight and replied, "Whoever among you is guiltless may be the first to throw a stone at her."
                            this verse implies that ...?....no one has the right to prosecute "sins"...?....

                            So, you are saying that Priests that have committed a crime or a sin can remain as they were as no one has the right to judge them? ---that would be your take on Christian ethics/morality?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by siam View Post
                              Rogue06
                              Scripture Verse: 1 John 4:1

                              Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

                              -------------------------------------------------
                              interesting.
                              I completely agree with the sentiment that blind faith is detrimental.

                              So how would you propose to test if belief/faith in Jesus as Son of God is "from God"?
                              Eyewitness testimony from multiple sources who really had nothing to gain is a good start.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by siam View Post
                                Trucker
                                Still unable to tag your replies to the post you're replying to???? Strange..

                                Originally posted by siam View Post
                                So your definition of faith is to believe that the sacrifice opens the way to forgiveness of sins and entrance into heaven.
                                Apparently you have an exceptional knack for creating strawmen. I did not say nor is it my position that "sacrifice opens the way to forgiveness of sins and entrance into heaven". Unless you're talking about the sacrifice Christ made at Calvary on the Cross. The ultimate Sacrifice denied by Muhammad just as he denied Who and What Jesus the Messiah was and is!!


                                Originally posted by siam View Post
                                therefore ...
                                Joh 8:7 When they persisted in asking him, he stood up straight and replied, "Whoever among you is guiltless may be the first to throw a stone at her."
                                this verse implies that ...?....no one has the right to prosecute "sins"...?....
                                No sir ... I did not say nor imply no one has right to prosecute sins or a violation of properly instituted law. Certainly God [that's God as revealed in and by our Scriptures, sir .. NOT Muhammad's Allah!] has the right to prosecute sins and violations of His laws. God also made a provision for the sins of mankind to be forgiven, But Muhammad denies that provision.

                                Originally posted by siam View Post
                                So, you are saying that Priests that have committed a crime or a sin can remain as they were as no one has the right to judge them? ---that would be your take on Christian ethics/morality?
                                Again ... another strawman, sir. Deal with what I say and not with what you wish I would have said.

                                Or is the problem really an inability to properly comprehend what you read in English?

                                Or perhaps you've just practiced the Islamic art of twisting words until they're unrecognizable so long you no longer realize you're doing it? I'm not trying to be smart with you sir. I'm trying to get to the bottom of why your replies so often misrepresent what I actually said.

                                Comment

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