Announcement

Collapse

Islam Guidelines

Theists only.

This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to Islam. This forum is generally for theists only, and is not the area for debate between atheists and theists. Non-theist may not post here without first obtaining permission from the moderator of this forum. Granting of such permission is subject to Moderator discretion - and may be revoked if the Moderator feels that the poster is not keeping with the spirit of the World Religions Department.



Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Hmmmmmmmm ...

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Rachid, the Moroccan Muslim researched the earliest biography of Muhamed, which all orthodox scholars say is "The.Life of The Apostle" or Sirat Rasulullah by ibn Ishaq and later revised by ibn Hisham.

    Ibn Hisham had it redacted and re-edited because the original of earlier work by ibn Ishaq was lost. That work by ibn hisham was finished and published only by 833 AD. A full 200 years after Muhamed's official death year. There was NOTHING by way of historical record on Muhd's life and work!

    Then only came hadith al-bukhari AFTER ibn Hisham's work. So the earliest sunni hadith are more than 200 years AFTER Muhd's death. No wonder many historians and scholars of religion do not accept the validity and authenticity of the hadiths as factual, historical records faithfully recounting Muhamed's life and work!

    here's an Arab Muslim study of this Islamic problem and unreliability -

    Rachid, David Wood unpack "Life of Muhd Sirah" by ibn Ishaq and Hisham in YouTube -

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rD5tL4LDH-M

    Moroccan Muslim, Rachid has since left and quit Islam and has since Become a Christian, which he says is much more honest and factually true historically, when compared to the Koran and sunnah

    Comment


    • #17
      Tawheed (Unity) and Equality
      (Opposite is---Shirk (Division) and Oppression)

      "There is no god but God" (La ilaha illallah) is the first part of the Shahada which goes...There is no god but God and Muhammed is his prophet. The Shahada is the creed. It is part of the 5 pillars of Islam...such as Prayer, Fasting, Charity, and Pilgrimage.

      Tawheed is also connected to some major concepts such as 1) Khalifa (Trusteeship) 2) Adl (Justice) 3) Ilm (Knowledge) 4) Beauty/Aesthetics....and Equality (Unity in diversity)

      Equality---This refers to the value of all creation which is all equally created by God by the "word"/ "Be". Therefore, all humanity is equally the creation of God, none superior/inferior. Only God is most supreme. As such, all humanity is of equivalent value. This does not mean all humanity is the "same". God created in diversity/difference. The diversity in creation forms the basis from which one can achieve peace or destruction---growth towards Unity brings harmony and therefore peace, whereas moving towards Division (Shirk) brings discord and therefore destruction.

      Aesthetics/Beauty----Some Christians place importance on the idea that "God is love"---the equivalent in Islam might be --- "Beauty is a reflection of the Divine"
      “Allah is Beautiful, and He loves beauty.” –Hadith of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)
      https://insidearabia.com/on-beauty-a...mic-tradition/
      From the Muslim perspective, the Quran reflects Divine Beauty.
      In the Quran, the highest spiritual level is that of "Ihsan"(Excellence)---one who does beautiful actions/deeds
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ihsan
      The pursuit of beauty/aesthetics is part of an Islamic worldview and an aspect of Jihad. Art, Architecture, Landscape design, Literature, etiquette/manners...etc... all form the basis of "gracious living" which denotes a "civilization".

      Knowledge---The pursuit of knowledge is a responsibility encouraged by both the Quran and the Prophet (pbuh). It forms the basis of Faith (Iman). (The opposite is Superstition/Blind belief)
      Iman is the middle spiritual level. Faith = The use of one's intellect and reason to arrive at heartfelt conviction.
      All knowledge is from God---and Nature is a revelation from God (as is the Quran). Therefore, to do science (exploring and understanding nature/God's creation) is to understand God's will/Guidance.
      Knowledge can be used for benefit---by aligning towards Tawheed (Unity) or it can be used for harm by aligning towards Shirk (Division)

      Justice---The basis of which are 2 major concepts 1) Human value 2) Human nature. 2) Human value---that All humanity is of equivalent value, none superior/inferior and 2) Human nature (Fitra) is created good, therefore one is innocent until proven otherwise.
      An essential component of Peace (Salam) is Justice. Peace cannot be achieved in an environment of oppression and oppression springs from inequality---which is the essence of Shirk.
      The purpose of Islam is to guide towards Peace (Salam) by turning/using "the way" of Tawheed (Unity).
      Islam is the lowest spiritual level. It means to submit to God's laws/God's will). A human or other creation that follows God's laws/God's will is a muslim Therefore, "nature" (universe, planets, animals...etc) is "muslim".

      Trusteeship---The purpose of humanity (on earth) is to discharge the duty that we have taken upon ourselves---that of Trusteeship. God's will = Right belief that promotes right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations

      Comment


      • #18

        Yeah right..If only the so-called beauty of Allah and the Koran does reflect any semblance of aesthetics that can be appreciated by humankind? Per siam’s incredible claim below:

        ‘Aesthetics/Beauty----Some Christians place importance on the idea that "God is love"---the equivalent in Islam might be --- "Beauty is a reflection of the Divine"’ and “Allah is Beautiful, and He loves beauty.” –Hadith of Prophet Muhammad. https://insidearabia.com/on-beauty-a...mic-tradition/

        ‘From the Muslim perspective, the Quran reflects Divine Beauty. In the Quran, the highest spiritual level is that of "Ihsan"(Excellence)---one who does beautiful actions/deeds’

        Such “beautiful actions/deeds” are poignantly reflected in the killings and murders of innocent Christians and worshippers in the Notre Dame church in Nice, France by vengeful and barbaric Muslims who obviously love the beauty of Islam, Allah, the Koran and Muhamed - their chief 'mentor and example' LOL!
        “Tunisian carrying Quran fatally stabs 3 in French church” -

        https://apnews.com/article/france-te...72280b8188f8ab

        “France attack: Three killed in Islamist terrorist stabbings” –

        https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54729957

        The French authorities and police have officially labelled this act of barbarism rightly and accurately as “Islamic terrorism”, THAT is the true 'beauty of Islam, the koran, Allah and Muhd'
        Keep it up with the official BS, siam.




        Originally posted by siam View Post
        Tawheed (Unity) and Equality
        (Opposite is---Shirk (Division) and Oppression)

        "There is no god but God" (La ilaha illallah) is the first part of the Shahada which goes...There is no god but God and Muhammed is his prophet. The Shahada is the creed. It is part of the 5 pillars of Islam...such as Prayer, Fasting, Charity, and Pilgrimage.

        Tawheed is also connected to some major concepts such as 1) Khalifa (Trusteeship) 2) Adl (Justice) 3) Ilm (Knowledge) 4) Beauty/Aesthetics....and Equality (Unity in diversity)

        Equality---This refers to the value of all creation which is all equally created by God by the "word"/ "Be". Therefore, all humanity is equally the creation of God, none superior/inferior. Only God is most supreme. As such, all humanity is of equivalent value. This does not mean all humanity is the "same". God created in diversity/difference. The diversity in creation forms the basis from which one can achieve peace or destruction---growth towards Unity brings harmony and therefore peace, whereas moving towards Division (Shirk) brings discord and therefore destruction.

        Aesthetics/Beauty----Some Christians place importance on the idea that "God is love"---the equivalent in Islam might be --- "Beauty is a reflection of the Divine"
        “Allah is Beautiful, and He loves beauty.” –Hadith of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)
        https://insidearabia.com/on-beauty-a...mic-tradition/
        From the Muslim perspective, the Quran reflects Divine Beauty.
        In the Quran, the highest spiritual level is that of "Ihsan"(Excellence)---one who does beautiful actions/deeds
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ihsan
        The pursuit of beauty/aesthetics is part of an Islamic worldview and an aspect of Jihad. Art, Architecture, Landscape design, Literature, etiquette/manners...etc... all form the basis of "gracious living" which denotes a "civilization".

        Knowledge---The pursuit of knowledge is a responsibility encouraged by both the Quran and the Prophet (pbuh). It forms the basis of Faith (Iman). (The opposite is Superstition/Blind belief)
        Iman is the middle spiritual level. Faith = The use of one's intellect and reason to arrive at heartfelt conviction.
        All knowledge is from God---and Nature is a revelation from God (as is the Quran). Therefore, to do science (exploring and understanding nature/God's creation) is to understand God's will/Guidance.
        Knowledge can be used for benefit---by aligning towards Tawheed (Unity) or it can be used for harm by aligning towards Shirk (Division)

        Justice---The basis of which are 2 major concepts 1) Human value 2) Human nature. 2) Human value---that All humanity is of equivalent value, none superior/inferior and 2) Human nature (Fitra) is created good, therefore one is innocent until proven otherwise.
        An essential component of Peace (Salam) is Justice. Peace cannot be achieved in an environment of oppression and oppression springs from inequality---which is the essence of Shirk.
        The purpose of Islam is to guide towards Peace (Salam) by turning/using "the way" of Tawheed (Unity).
        Islam is the lowest spiritual level. It means to submit to God's laws/God's will). A human or other creation that follows God's laws/God's will is a muslim Therefore, "nature" (universe, planets, animals...etc) is "muslim".

        Trusteeship---The purpose of humanity (on earth) is to discharge the duty that we have taken upon ourselves---that of Trusteeship. God's will = Right belief that promotes right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations

        Comment


        • #19
          Sure got quiet in here!

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by siam View Post
            Tawheed (Unity) and Equality
            (Opposite is---Shirk (Division) and Oppression)

            "There is no god but God" (La ilaha illallah) is the first part of the Shahada which goes...There is no god but God and Muhammed is his prophet. The Shahada is the creed. It is part of the 5 pillars of Islam...such as Prayer, Fasting, Charity, and Pilgrimage.

            Tawheed is also connected to some major concepts such as 1) Khalifa (Trusteeship) 2) Adl (Justice) 3) Ilm (Knowledge) 4) Beauty/Aesthetics....and Equality (Unity in diversity)
            Perhaps you missed it the first time I asked so I'll ask you again ..

            What is the origin of the word "Tawheed"? It seems that should be a really easy question for one as versed in Islamic apologetics as you seem to be.

            Comment


            • #21
              Trucker et al, are you surprised? It always gets quiet when people and readers here don't buy into the ideas and propoganda of muslims and dawagandists, like siam et cetera. Thats why propoganda like that need to be investigated and challenged for sanity and sensibility to the mind of humanity. Islam claims to be rational but is really far from it.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                Trucker et al, are you surprised? It always gets quiet when people and readers here don't buy into the ideas
                and propoganda of muslims and dawagandists, like siam et cetera. Thats why propoganda like that need to be investigated and challenged for sanity and sensibility to the mind of humanity. Islam claims to be rational but is really far from it.
                Yeah ... I know. But the question is so elementary.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Dan

                  ...and Dylan Roof is a fine example of a Christian...
                  and Christopher Colombus, (Taino massacre)
                  and Oliver Cromwell,
                  https://catholicherald.co.uk/christi...s-why-is-that/
                  and Cecil Rhodes
                  https://espressostalinist.com/genoci...cide-diamonds/
                  and Andrew Jackson (Indian removal act and the trial of tears)
                  https://www.history.com/topics/nativ...trail-of-tears
                  ....and many, many more....

                  Do you have nothing positive to say about Christianity? The only thing you seem capable of is to defend Christianity through hate and provocation. Is that the best way to represent Christianity to a non-Christian? It does not create a positive impression of Christianity. If your religion is not capable of lifting humanity towards ethico-moral goodness, peace and harmony, and benefit to God's creation....then of what use is such a religion? It creates nothing but bloodshed and harm.

                  If you want to show that Christianity is better---then BE a good Christian human being.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by siam View Post
                    Dan

                    ...and Dylan Roof is a fine example of a Christian...
                    and Christopher Colombus, (Taino massacre)
                    and Oliver Cromwell,
                    https://catholicherald.co.uk/christi...s-why-is-that/
                    and Cecil Rhodes
                    https://espressostalinist.com/genoci...cide-diamonds/
                    and Andrew Jackson (Indian removal act and the trial of tears)
                    https://www.history.com/topics/nativ...trail-of-tears
                    ....and many, many more....

                    Do you have nothing positive to say about Christianity? The only thing you seem capable of is to defend Christianity through hate and provocation. Is that the best way to represent Christianity to a non-Christian? It does not create a positive impression of Christianity. If your religion is not capable of lifting humanity towards ethico-moral goodness, peace and harmony, and benefit to God's creation....then of what use is such a religion? It creates nothing but bloodshed and harm.

                    If you want to show that Christianity is better---then BE a good Christian human being.
                    Would you please quote for us Scripture from the New Testament that would authorize, permit, or condone the actions you ascribe to Christians in your above quoted post?

                    Thank you.

                    Comment


                    • #25


                      Siam, there is actually everything POSITIVE to say about the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Christianity while there is practically NOTHING of the same that can be said about Islam.

                      That is why I will NEVER become a muslim in 10 million years even if u bribed or paid me a million bucks.

                      SHOW us from the real teachings of Jesus Christ in the NT, verses and injunctions to hatred, violence and discrimination of all types that Muhamed enjoined and found in many places of the koran? Then maybe, we can discuss ethics.

                      The so-called 'ethics' or 'morality' found in the Koran, sunnah and sharia cannot be compared or even hold a candle to what the Lord Jesus Christ revealed.



                      Originally posted by siam View Post
                      Dan

                      ...and Dylan Roof is a fine example of a Christian...
                      and Christopher Colombus, (Taino massacre)
                      and Oliver Cromwell,
                      https://catholicherald.co.uk/christi...s-why-is-that/
                      and Cecil Rhodes
                      https://espressostalinist.com/genoci...cide-diamonds/
                      and Andrew Jackson (Indian removal act and the trial of tears)
                      https://www.history.com/topics/nativ...trail-of-tears
                      ....and many, many more....

                      Do you have nothing positive to say about Christianity? The only thing you seem capable of is to defend Christianity through hate and provocation. Is that the best way to represent Christianity to a non-Christian? It does not create a positive impression of Christianity. If your religion is not capable of lifting humanity towards ethico-moral goodness, peace and harmony, and benefit to God's creation....then of what use is such a religion? It creates nothing but bloodshed and harm.

                      If you want to show that Christianity is better---then BE a good Christian human being.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        So give me positive stuff about Christianity....hopefully linked to your Bible....
                        Any time in history and any geographical location is fine....

                        Here is a start....(7 virtues)
                        http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/documents...eadly_sins.pdf
                        The Seven Deadly Sins Three Spiritual Sins
                        1. Pride (spiritual sin)
                        2. Envy (spiritual sin)
                        3. Wrath (spiritual sin affected by body) Four Corporal Sins
                        4. Accidia or Sloth (corporal sin)
                        5. Avaricia/Cupiditas or Greed (corporal sin)
                        6. Gluttony (corporal sin)
                        7. Lust (corporal sin)

                        The Seven Holy Virtues Three Spiritual (or Theological) Virtues
                        1. Fides (Faith)
                        2. Spes (Hope)
                        3. Caritas (Charity) The Four Cardinal (or Pagan) Virtues
                        4. Prudence
                        5. Temperance
                        6. Fortitude
                        7. Justice

                        Lets start with Faith---If Faith = reliance on God, then forced conversions indicate bad faith.
                        (Mathew 6 :31-34)

                        https://www.christianitytoday.com/hi...interview.html
                        Augustine, the great bishop of Hippo in North Africa in the late fourth and early fifth century, was faced with a dissident sect, the Donatists. Augustine wanted to bring them back in the orthodox fold, and he agonized about whether it was permissible to use coercion to do so.
                        Eventually he decided it was, and one biblical text that persuaded him was the parable of the great banquet (Luke 14:16-24). A rich man gives a feast, and when no one he invites shows up, he tells his servants to go out and "Compel people to come in."

                        He is considered a Christian saint.

                        Give me positive examples of faith in Christian history:---
                        (U can use Mathew 6:31-34 as a criteria if u wish)
                        https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...34&version=NIV
                        31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by siam View Post
                          So give me positive stuff about Christianity....hopefully linked to your Bible....
                          Any time in history and any geographical location is fine....

                          Here is a start....(7 virtues)
                          http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/documents...eadly_sins.pdf
                          The Seven Deadly Sins Three Spiritual Sins
                          1. Pride (spiritual sin)
                          2. Envy (spiritual sin)
                          3. Wrath (spiritual sin affected by body) Four Corporal Sins
                          4. Accidia or Sloth (corporal sin)
                          5. Avaricia/Cupiditas or Greed (corporal sin)
                          6. Gluttony (corporal sin)
                          7. Lust (corporal sin)

                          The Seven Holy Virtues Three Spiritual (or Theological) Virtues
                          1. Fides (Faith)
                          2. Spes (Hope)
                          3. Caritas (Charity) The Four Cardinal (or Pagan) Virtues
                          4. Prudence
                          5. Temperance
                          6. Fortitude
                          7. Justice

                          Lets start with Faith---If Faith = reliance on God, then forced conversions indicate bad faith.
                          (Mathew 6 :31-34)

                          https://www.christianitytoday.com/hi...interview.html
                          Augustine, the great bishop of Hippo in North Africa in the late fourth and early fifth century, was faced with a dissident sect, the Donatists. Augustine wanted to bring them back in the orthodox fold, and he agonized about whether it was permissible to use coercion to do so.
                          Eventually he decided it was, and one biblical text that persuaded him was the parable of the great banquet (Luke 14:16-24). A rich man gives a feast, and when no one he invites shows up, he tells his servants to go out and "Compel people to come in."

                          He is considered a Christian saint.

                          Give me positive examples of faith in Christian history:---
                          (U can use Mathew 6:31-34 as a criteria if u wish)
                          https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...34&version=NIV
                          31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

                          I will gladly address your above post ...... WHEN YOU GET AROUND TO ANSERING THE SIMPLE ELEMENTARY QUSTION I posted for you some time ago.

                          What is the origin of the word "Tawheed"? It seems that should be a really easy question for one as versed in Islamic apologetics as you seem to be.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            It seems our resident Islamic polemicist is not interested in a discussion.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              when given the opportunity to point out a positive thing about Christianity---Christians have nothing to say....

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by siam View Post
                                when given the opportunity to point out a positive thing about Christianity---Christians have nothing to say....
                                You were asked a simple elementary question which you have refused to address, sir. You were advised that as soon as you address my simple question to you with substance I would be more than happy to address the [what you evidently think are] issues you raised

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by rogue06, 11-13-2020, 09:15 AM
                                44 responses
                                261 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post siam
                                by siam
                                 
                                Started by Christian3, 10-25-2020, 07:17 AM
                                8 responses
                                66 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Trucker
                                by Trucker
                                 
                                Started by Trucker, 10-23-2020, 11:09 AM
                                49 responses
                                340 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by JohnnyP, 01-23-2014, 04:30 PM
                                5 responses
                                7,409 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post Dan Zebiri  
                                Working...
                                X