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Being a religion of peace

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  • #16
    Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
    There are various Christian groups, like the Quakers, who read the scriptures with integrity and arrive at a position of radical non-violence. I'm not sure that position can be so easily dismissed.
    And they can have any opinion they like on non essentials. As far as I know, Quakers do not teach that all Christians should be as pacifistic as they are. Tradition and the Gospels themselves are fairly clear on the subject though.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

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    • #17
      No one addressed Cow Poke's comment, Read in Matthew 10: “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person's enemies will be those of his own household.
      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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      • #18
        "Peace" can be understood in different ways....

        If it is understood not just as a "value" but a path (a way of conduct) then 2 things must be considered and balanced together... promotion of good conduct and restraint of bad conduct.
        Thus "to bully" would be considered bad conduct and such conduct must be regulated and restrained....which means the one being bullied can seek protection by using these socio-legal restraints/regulations.....(---in other words...resorting to justice instead of violence....)
        restraint of bad conduct also means that in the event of self-defense (when there is no recourse to justice and one must defend oneself from bullying) then such self-defense cannot go over into revenge...once the attacks stop, the defensive actions must also stop....otherwise such actions become attacks and fall into "bad conduct".

        As a "path" to peace...it is not enough to consider options after violence has occurred....but also to have guidelines for everyday promotion of good conduct and restraint of bad conduct---in other words codes of conduct (manners, etiquette) must be practiced and lived.

        If we consider Peace as a value/principle---then there are 2 considerations we must take into account---Peace that comes about through Justice (the use of free-will) and Peace that comes about through oppression (constraints on free-will). A philosophy that advocates for peace through oppression would be promoting injustice. From the Quranic perspective..."Just Peace" is a principle that is worth fighting for.

        If we consider Peace as a spiritual level (Oneness/Unity/God-awareness/Nirvana) Then in the Islamic context---this is a discipline and a methodology....

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
          No one addressed Cow Poke's comment, Read in Matthew 10: “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person's enemies will be those of his own household.
          I read that passage as meaning that those who become Christians will at times make themselves enemies of their own families by becoming Christians. That is something that certainly happened in ancient times for Christians (and even today). I don't think it meant much more than that. Christ is still the Prince of Peace.
          "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Cerealman View Post
            Just a simple question:
            Does being a "peaceful religion" mean you stand there and get bullied by others?
            People will point to Jesus as the supreme example of the peaceful one, but they like to forget that He's also the one who sends the avenging Roman army as punishment.

            You also can't directly extrapolate characteristics of Jesus for characterisation of the idealised Christian as Jesus played a very specific and unique rôle.
            Last edited by Paprika; 05-08-2015, 01:15 AM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Paprika View Post
              People will point to Jesus as the supreme example of the peaceful one, but they like to forget that He's also the one who sends the avenging Roman army as punishment.

              You also can't directly extrapolate characteristics of Jesus for characterisation of the idealised Christian as Jesus played a very specific and unique rôle.
              I agree with you about how to interpret Jesus' role. Some of His actions (and certainly His direct teaching) were surely meant as exemplars. Others were meant to be substitutionary. There are lots of schools of thought that parse the dividing line in different places.

              As to Quakers (which you didn't ask me about), it's true that they don't expect every member to be pacifist. I was simply making the point that people of integrity can read the same text and arrive at different attitudes. I certainly don't know who's right.

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              • #22
                How would Christians understand this passage...?....
                Luke 19 : 27
                "But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence." (Said by Jesus)

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by siam View Post
                  How would Christians understand this passage...?....
                  Luke 19 : 27
                  "But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence." (Said by Jesus)
                  In context, He's telling a parable, He's not using this as an exemplar of fine behaviour because this is not the point of the story.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by siam View Post
                    How would Christians understand this passage...?....
                    Luke 19 : 27
                    "But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence." (Said by Jesus)
                    Like Pancreasman said, it's a parable. It has to do with the coming destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.
                    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by siam View Post
                      How would Christians understand this passage...?....
                      Luke 19 : 27
                      "But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence." (Said by Jesus)
                      It means he is going to 'come' back (cf. Olivet Discourse) and smite the hell out of the rebellious Jews (cf Roman destruction of Jerusalem, AD 70).

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Cerealman View Post
                        I'm assuming that Christians should be peaceful when needed but defend/fight when it's needed.
                        Oh
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by siam View Post
                          How would Christians understand this passage...?....
                          Luke 19 : 27
                          "But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence." (Said by Jesus)

                          You really should read the verses in context before trying to post them in an argument.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                            In context, He's telling a parable, He's not using this as an exemplar of fine behaviour because this is not the point of the story.
                            Please expand on the point of the story. A parable may be a parable, but this one is pretty violent parable.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              Please expand on the point of the story. A parable may be a parable, but this one is pretty violent parable.
                              The destruction of Jerusalem was a pretty violent act. So...
                              "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

                                You really should read the verses in context before trying to post them in an argument.
                                I am sure he just found that verse on a muslim website. I doubt if siam has read the bible.

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