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Welcome to Comp Religions, this is where the sights and sounds of the many world religions come together in a big World's Fair type atmosphere, without those delicious funnel cakes.

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Your religious beliefs are false, now what?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Jesse View Post
    I would say that the biggest difference between Judaism and Christianity is who we think Christ is. Indeed there is a Judeo-Christian ethic we hold
    somewhat. But both religions also hold completely different beliefs and rituals as well. So really the only things that would be proven false are minor (excluding Christ) shared beliefs. Judaism as whole I also believe would remain untouched. But let's say for the sake of argument you are right and Judaism by extension to Christianity is also false, where would you stand then?
    The NT authors quoted or alluded to the OT as many as 4,105 times to give authority to their message, so they saw it as being foundational to Christianity. This goes well beyond a some differences in rituals and a difference of opinion about Christ. A central part of the Gospel message is about the promises that God made in the OT.

    For me personally, I would hold probably only to the common ethics of both religions while having a belief in a "nondescript" higher power. How about yourself?
    I think the arguments for the existence of the God of classical theism are strong, so even if the argument for the Christian identity of this being were false, I think I would still maintain a similar ethic. Perhaps I would get into Zen Buddhism.
    "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      Alternates to Christianity are excluded from Pascal's wager, leaving only the choice between Atheism and Christianity.

      I essential do tree search through alternative world view, but without judgment of black and white or true and false, because as fallible humans we lack the ability to prove it either way. The question remains, from the limited human perspective 'What is the Universal?' Divine or Natural? or possibly both.
      The other belief systems also need to be so compared. Two at a time.

      If one believes in Biblical Christianity. And the Baha'i faith that is not being believed in is actually true. What is the consequence to the one believing in Christianity?

      If one believes in the Baha'i faith. And Biblical Christianity that is not being believed is actually true. What is the consequence to be one believing in the Baha'i faith?

      On the likelihood what is going to be believed will be wrong, which belief system of those two would be the better choice?


      Please explain your answer.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
        The NT authors quoted or alluded to the OT as many as 4,105 times to give authority to their message, so they saw it as being foundational to Christianity. This goes well beyond a some differences in rituals and a difference of opinion about Christ. A central part of the Gospel message is about the promises that God made in the OT.
        That is why I said excluding Christ. Judaism to this day say that those passages were not about Christ. And if Christ was proven to not be who he says he was, that would make their claims true. Our Christ is not theirs so they say (they are still waiting for their Messiah to come). And if ours was proven false, nothing would change for someone following Judaism other than a lot of boasting on their part.
        Last edited by Jesse; 04-11-2015, 11:34 PM.
        "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
          Please allow the atheists to speak for themselves, Jed. To the extent I can make it out, your attempt to do so for us ... isn't even wrong. You're not doing so well speaking for the OP, either. No one asked for the consequences of concrete evidence that there is God.
          A quote from the OP

          Originally posted by Jesse View Post
          snip . . .What would you do, if you found out concretely that your faith was wrong? . . . snip . . .
          What say the rest of you? If your faith was proven false beyond a shadow of a doubt, how would you go from there? . . . snip
          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            The other belief systems also need to be so compared. Two at a time.

            If one believes in Biblical Christianity. And the Baha'i faith that is not being believed in is actually true. What is the consequence to the one believing in Christianity?

            If one believes in the Baha'i faith. And Biblical Christianity that is not being believed is actually true. What is the consequence to be one believing in the Baha'i faith?

            On the likelihood what is going to be believed will be wrong, which belief system of those two would be the better choice?


            Please explain your answer.
            The question of 'actually true,' remain problematic as I explained. For example, 'What is Biblical Christianity?' is open to significant inconsistent disagreement among those who believe differently.

            Easy, at present the Baha'i Faith, after evaluating all the possible evidence found in scripture, philosophy and history. Also, prayer and the contemplative search for knowledge of God will always be a part of my journey. At present I find no legitimate reason to believe any one of the variations of Christianity. I fully acknowledge the human fallibility of my decisions and if new knowledge becomes known I may change.

            When, comparing one faith with another, it is true if you pick the wrong theistic belief your in trouble with God. The consequences are up to God, and not up to human speculation or claims, since there is no consistency in the claims of consequences. If God does not exist, there are unfortunate consequences of different religious causing conflicts and suffering.

            In the Baha'i Faith the after life is a journey through many worlds, and sincerity of belief and knowledge will determine your journey. Rejecting God, you will not know God in the journey and suffer the consequences determined by God.

            If Christianity is true, and your not Christian (which of the many different is a problem) you will suffer the punishment or judgment of which ever division of Christianity may be true.

            If you compare Judaism and Christianity which is true. If your Christian and that is not true, your a heretic and suffer the appropriate punishment. If Christianity is true (which one?), the consequences of judgment will be whatever which church belief is true.

            Pascal's wager is a fear based farse. I believe in the sincere search for knowledge, and not fear of consequences.
            Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-12-2015, 07:03 AM.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #51
              Shuny, the question is personal to each individual. If YOUR faith was proven false, what would be your beliefs? I assume there is something to disprove? Like if your prophet was a liar for example.

              The question is definitely not, which form of Christianity is Biblical Christianity; which for the sake of discussion is usually meant by Christians on the board to be broad enough that everyone who has the Christian tag is a member even with our sometimes disparate beliefs.
              Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                The question of 'actually true,' remain problematic as I explained. For example, 'What is Biblical Christianity?' is open to significant inconsistent disagreement among those who believe differently.

                Easy, at present the Baha'i Faith, after evaluating all the possible evidence found in scripture, philosophy and history. Also, prayer and the contemplative search for knowledge of God will always be a part of my journey. At present I find no legitimate reason to believe any one of the variations of Christianity. I fully acknowledge the human fallibility of my decisions and if new knowledge becomes known I may change.

                When, comparing one faith with another, it is true if you pick the wrong theistic belief your in trouble with God. The consequences are up to God, and not up to human speculation or claims, since there is no consistency in the claims of consequences. If God does not exist, there are unfortunate consequences of different religious causing conflicts and suffering.

                In the Baha'i Faith the after life is a journey through many worlds, and sincerity of belief and knowledge will determine your journey. Rejecting God, you will not know God in the journey and suffer the consequences determined by God.

                If Christianity is true, and your not Christian (which of the many different is a problem) you will suffer the punishment or judgment of which ever division of Christianity may be true.

                If you compare Judaism and Christianity which is true. If your Christian and that is not true, your a heretic and suffer the appropriate punishment. If Christianity is true (which one?), the consequences of judgment will be whatever which church belief is true.

                Pascal's wager is a fear based farse. I believe in the sincere search for knowledge, and not fear of consequences.
                So according to you, Pascal's wager is nothing more than spiritual terrorism. And what we do when we are confronted with a bomb threat whether true or not should not be followed in spiritual matters. Do I understand you correctly?
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
                  Pardon you for speaking as if you know me. And I no longer require an exorcist because the Spirit of God dwells inside me and the pale imitations I called upon cannot stand His Holy prescence.
                  This is worthy of a response. Because you needed an exorcist, you have either taken drugs-- this doesn't need an exorcist to cure, or you are a complete poser who shouldn't be given any help. Being a poser myself, I have not received has as much help as I could have gotten, but this comes with knowing when one shouldn't be a poser, not in those accidental times, when one is a poser.

                  I don't think you should be given any help.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    So according to you, Pascal's wager is nothing more than spiritual terrorism. And what we do when we are confronted with a bomb threat whether true or not should not be followed in spiritual matters. Do I understand you correctly?
                    No, you do not understand me correctly. Bomb threats cannot be equated remotely with the foolishness Pascal's Wager, which cannot be equated as you propose. I sure didn't propose anything of the sort. Go back and read the post and respond in a manner that represents a dialogue.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
                      Shuny, the question is personal to each individual. If YOUR faith was proven false, what would be your beliefs? I assume there is something to disprove? Like if your prophet was a liar for example.
                      I answered the question. If I found my belief untenable I would be turn to strong agnosticism, acknowledging that Philosophical Naturalism is possibly true. I consider ancient religious world views such as Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, and Islam are untenable, considering the knowledge I have of religions and the context of today's world, but none can be proven false.

                      Again, it is unlikely that any of the major religions of the world can be proven false nor true.

                      The question is definitely not, which form of Christianity is Biblical Christianity; which for the sake of discussion is usually meant by Christians on the board to be broad enough that everyone who has the Christian tag is a member even with our sometimes disparate beliefs.
                      It was an issue concerning 37818's post. Some of the disparate Christian denominations do not accept each other as Christians
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        I answered the question. If I found my belief untenable I would be turn to strong agnosticism, acknowledging that Philosophical Naturalism is possibly true. I consider ancient religious world views such as Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, and Islam are untenable, considering the knowledge I have of religions and the context of today's world, but none can be proven false.

                        Again, it is unlikely that any of the major religions of the world can be proven false nor true.



                        It was an issue concerning 37818's post. Some of the disparate Christian denominations do not accept each other as Christians
                        Ah, I had not read the thread very closely and assumed what you were saying was in some way related to the OP, and I was hoping to clarify to you. I did not realize you were having a separate conversation in the thread, please forgive me.
                        Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
                          Ah, I had not read the thread very closely and assumed what you were saying was in some way related to the OP, and I was hoping to clarify to you. I did not realize you were having a separate conversation in the thread, please forgive me.
                          Not a separate conversation at all, but closer to the reality of belief. For purposes to satisfy you, you can equate my view of the ancient beliefs as untenable, with Proven False, and if my present belief, the Baha'i Faith is proven false than I would be a strong agnostic.

                          Sarcasm needle just pegged in the ridiculous.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            Not a separate conversation at all, but closer to the reality of belief. For purposes to satisfy you, you can equate my view of the ancient beliefs as untenable, with Proven False, and if my present belief, the Baha'i Faith is proven false than I would be a strong agnostic.

                            Sarcasm needle just pegged in the ridiculous.
                            You are accusing me of sarcasm? I'll admit I have much experience with it, but I did not utilize that tool here; I am being sincere, and my apology is sincere, I haven't kept track of your discussion with 37818 in this thread and meant to apologize for accusing you of changing the topic of discussion when you were simply along a different line of discussion.

                            I know you consider ancient faiths to be universally false, I've read your posts before and have recognized an often smug tone if you don't mind me saying, in regards to the advancedness of your rather more recent belief system. This is the second time in a post directed towards me that you say you would be a strong agnostic if the Baha'i Faith were proven false, and I understood it the previous time.

                            I can only assume that you think I intended something rather different than what I believe I have said, again, I will apologize; if this is a fault on my part I am sorry.
                            Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
                              You are accusing me of sarcasm? I'll admit I have much experience with it, but I did not utilize that tool here; I am being sincere, and my apology is sincere, I haven't kept track of your discussion with 37818 in this thread and meant to apologize for accusing you of changing the topic of discussion when you were simply along a different line of discussion.

                              I know you consider ancient faiths to be universally false, I've read your posts before and have recognized an often smug tone if you don't mind me saying, in regards to the advancedness of your rather more recent belief system. This is the second time in a post directed towards me that you say you would be a strong agnostic if the Baha'i Faith were proven false, and I understood it the previous time.

                              I can only assume that you think I intended something rather different than what I believe I have said, again, I will apologize; if this is a fault on my part I am sorry.
                              The first post by Jesse created a problem as follows, It is extremely difficult if not impossible to 'prove' God does not exist or 'prove the 'Resurrection.' It is not only an awkward logical problem to prove the negative, but the claim of the 'truth' or nature of an ancient event like the Resurrection defies any possible proof either way. Traditional Christians believe in God and the physical Resurrection, based on their scripture, and others do not because they find the case in the scripture adequate.

                              What is more logical is whether one finds their belief, or any belief tenable and believable in terms of the evidence, and personal experience and knowledge. In reality I personally could not go with any ancient religion 'proven false,' nor my own choice the Baha'i Faith, nor atheism and agnosticism, nor the existence of God.

                              Originally posted by Jesse
                              I had thought about this question yesterday and figured it would be a good topic to discuss. What would you do, if you found out concretely that your faith was wrong? Personally, as a Christian, if I found out that my belief was in vain (they proved Christ did not rise from the dead), I would still believe in a God. I would probably lean towards Judaism. That would be a natural fit for me. I don't think I could ever stop believing in a God.

                              What say the rest of you? If your faith was proven false beyond a shadow of a doubt, how would you go from there? I would like to ask this of atheists/agnostics as well. If there was proven to be a God (or any general higher power that rules reality), how would you respond as well?
                              Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-13-2015, 07:07 AM.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                If Christianity was proven false, I would probably become an agnostic with strong leanings toward Atheism. Out of necessity I would reluctantly feel obligated to leave the door open to a supernatural dimension.
                                Last edited by Scrawly; 04-13-2015, 09:10 PM.

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