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Your religious beliefs are false, now what?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    FIFY
    You didn't fix anything. You altered my statement in order to have something which would be easier to argue against. That's pretty much the textbook definition of "constructing a Straw Man."

    You are not responding to the question. All you have done is claim your belief is based on concrete proof. Not so.
    At no point did I claim any belief is based on concrete proof. I simply stated that I came to realize my view on inerrancy was wrong. Which is an utterly true statement.

    Furthermore, I did respond to the question in the OP by stating exactly how I would react if it could be proven that some deity exists.
    "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
    --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

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    • #32
      I don't want this to become a debate on it's own. The OT doesn't become false if the NT is. Those practicing Judaism would not agree with this statement. They do not believe that Christ was the fulfillment of the Law.
      I didn't say that Judaism holds to the divinity of Christ, that the OT becomes false if the NT is, or that Judaism hold that Christ is the fulfillment of the law, and I would agree with you that all of those statements are false, so none of your objections interacted at all with the point I was making, but I can leave it at that.
      Last edited by Soyeong; 04-11-2015, 05:00 PM.
      "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

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      • #33
        If I were to find that Christianity were false (including the existence of God), I think existential nihilism would be an extremely attractive (and probably the only) option.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Adrift View Post
          If I were to find that Christianity were false (including the existence of God), I think existential nihilism would be an extremely attractive (and probably the only) option.
          Now I have to go and find out what existential nihilism is.
          "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
            I didn't say that Judaism holds to the divinity of Christ, that the OT becomes false if the NT is, or that Judaism hold that Christ is the fulfillment of the law, and I would agree with you that all of those statements are false, so none of your objections interacted at all with the point I was making, but I can leave it at that.
            I understand where you are coming from Soyeong. I was just trying to point out how one does not negate the other. Since there was Judaism before Christianity, I don't see how one is necessarily beholden to the other. We believe (well most of us do) that Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism. If Christianity is ever proven false, you will still have Judaism untouched.
            "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

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            • #36
              I understand where you are coming from Soyeong. I was just trying to point out how one does not negate the other. Since there was Judaism before Christianity, I don't see how one is necessarily beholden to the other. We believe (well most of us do) that Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism. If Christianity is ever proven false, you will still have Judaism untouched.
              Judaism and Christianity share many beliefs in common, so if Christianity is false, then the shared beliefs are false, which would mean Judaism also contains many false beliefs. However, it is possible for the parts of Christianity that Judaism doesn't share to be false and for Judaism to still remain untouched.
              Last edited by Soyeong; 04-11-2015, 08:42 PM.
              "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
                Judaism and Christianity share many beliefs in common, so if Christianity is false, then the shared beliefs are false, which would mean Judaism also contains many false beliefs. However, it is possible for the parts of Christianity that Judaism doesn't share to be false and for Judaism to still remain untouched.
                I would say that the biggest difference between Judaism and Christianity is who we think Christ is. Indeed there is a Judeo-Christian ethic we hold
                somewhat. But both religions also hold completely different beliefs and rituals as well. So really the only things that would be proven false are minor (excluding Christ) shared beliefs. Judaism as whole I also believe would remain untouched. But let's say for the sake of argument you are right and Judaism by extension to Christianity is also false, where would you stand then?

                For me personally, I would hold probably only to the common ethics of both religions while having a belief in a "nondescript" higher power. How about yourself?
                Last edited by Jesse; 04-11-2015, 09:06 PM.
                "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Omniskeptical View Post
                  Proved he didn't rise? And yet there are now 3 monotheistic religions in the world. Unitarianism, Judaism, and Islam. Baha'i doesn't count cause is monopantheism.
                  Interesting, define monopantheism and how the Baha'i Faith is monopantheistic?

                  As far as the thread topic goes; I have found all the major ancient religions flawed to point they reflected the worldview of only one ancient culture, but not necessarily totally false. If a theistic God exists it is most likely that the religions reflect a limited human view of God through a glass clouded. The alternatives were few Unitarian Universalists offered a viable alternative with a humanist, agnostic/atheist worldview, and the Baha'i Faith with a monotheist worldview. Both offered a more universal perspective then any single ancient religion with only one cultural world view and claim of being the one true religion at the exclusion of others. Philosophically I remain agnostic, but my faith of choice at present is the Baha'i Faith.

                  I acknowledge the possibility that all theistic religions are possibly false, and atheism is true.
                  Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-11-2015, 10:10 PM.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    Interesting, define monopantheism and how the Baha'i Faith is monopantheistic?

                    As far as the thread topic goes; I have found all the major ancient religions flawed to point they reflected the worldview of only one ancient culture, but not necessarily totally false. The alternatives were few Unitarian Universalists offered a viable alternative with a humanist, agnostic/atheist worldview, and the Baha'i Faith with a monotheist worldview. Both offered a more universal perspective then any single ancient religion with only one cultural world view and claim of being the one true religion at the exclusion of others. Philosophically I remain agnostic, but my faith of choice at present is the Baha'i Faith.

                    I acknowledge the possibility that all theistic religions are possibly false, and atheism is true.
                    So if you found out your Baha'i faith was proven false, would you go atheist/agnostic or chose another faith?
                    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      At issue is what is really true. Ideas, I think, which cannot be tested with known facts, can be tested on premising them true, and premising them false. Taking two contrasting views at a time. Eliminating one, and comparing another, so on and so forth. While different people may come to different conclusions, even using this type of method. Common conclusions are possible with it.

                      Pascal's wager is one narrow example. An atheism as opposed to Pascal's view of God. The critics of Pascal's wager all introduce other possibilities which fall outside Pascal's wager.
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Jesse View Post
                        So if you found out your Baha'i faith was proven false, would you go atheist/agnostic or chose another faith?
                        Religious beliefs, including atheism and agnosticism cannot be 'proven' false. I consider agnosticism the best default position. Concepts of 'What is the universal?' remain a continuing quest. In this quest the individual ancient religions anchored in ancient cultures fail to provide a reasonable answer.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Omniskeptical View Post
                          Lest you took drugs, this is highly unlikely. Are you implying that you need an exorcist?
                          Pardon you for speaking as if you know me. And I no longer require an exorcist because the Spirit of God dwells inside me and the pale imitations I called upon cannot stand His Holy prescence.
                          Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            Religious beliefs, including atheism and agnosticism cannot be 'proven' false. I consider agnosticism the best default position. Concepts of 'What is the universal?' remain a continuing quest. In this quest the individual ancient religions anchored in ancient cultures fail to provide a reasonable answer.
                            I don't think you read the question closely enough. I asked, if your faith could concretely be proven false, what would you do? Now, you didn't have to answer the question, but try not to ignore what was clearly asked.
                            "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              At issue is what is really true. Ideas, I think, which cannot be tested with known facts, can be tested on premising them true, and premising them false. Taking two contrasting views at a time. Eliminating one, and comparing another, so on and so forth. While different people may come to different conclusions, even using this type of method. Common conclusions are possible with it.

                              Pascal's wager is one narrow example. An atheism as opposed to Pascal's view of God. The critics of Pascal's wager all introduce other possibilities which fall outside Pascal's wager.
                              Alternates to Christianity are excluded from Pascal's wager, leaving only the choice between Atheism and Christianity.

                              I essential do tree search through alternative world view, but without judgment of black and white or true and false, because as fallible humans we lack the ability to prove it either way. The question remains, from the limited human perspective 'What is the Universal?' Divine or Natural? or possibly both.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Jesse View Post
                                I don't think you read the question closely enough. I asked, if your faith could concretely be proven false, what would you do? Now, you didn't have to answer the question, but try not to ignore what was clearly asked.
                                Well, I understood your question, and like myself most hedged as what is 'concretely be proven false,' as answers between Judaism and Christianity. I hedge based on the fallible nature of human nature concerning religious choices where the anecdotal reins.

                                I guess if you want as specific a response as possible, I would be an strong agnostic acknowledging the possibility that all worldview choices are too flawed, and Philosophical Naturalism is true. already consider the ancient worldviews flawed to the point they could not reflect the universal.
                                Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-11-2015, 10:53 PM.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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