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Recognizing the false Christian cults.

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  • #61
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    I do not think that Genesis 15:6 says what you want it to say.

    Q: According to Genesis 15:6 is Abraham righteous, or is it belief that is righteous?
    And flowing from that answer, is Paul in saying "faith was reckoned for righteousness" (Rom 4:5,9), making a claim that "a person's faith makes him righteous," or is he making a claim that a person, whether circumcised or not, can be righteous?
    Rom 4:9 ελογισθη τω αβρααμ ηπιστις αυτου εις δικαιοσυνην - to Abraham, his faith was reckoned unto/for/toward righteousness ... Nothing is directly reckoned righteous in that statement: not faith, and certainly not Abraham.
    λογιζεται η πιστις αυτου εις δικαιοσυνην (v4) ... faith gets evaluated
    (v9) ελογισθη τω αβρααμ η πιστις εις δικαιοσυνην (v9) faith got evaluated
    Romans 4:1-5, ". . . What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. [Genesis 15:6 is being referenced] Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ." Genesis 15:6, ". . . And he believed Jehovah; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness. . . ."

    The record stands in evidence. And without righteousness being counted to Abraham by faith without works - Abraham's later work (Genesis 22:12) could not to had merit, but it did in fulfillment of that faith (James 2:23). Not the other way around. The faith without works preceded its work. (Genesis 15:6 prior to Genesis 22:12).
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    • #62
      If you don't want to accept that Abraham was not declared righteous because he believed - despite the scriptural record - there is nothing to be done on that account.

      So on to the next point:

      Where does the scripture say that a man is deemed righteous just because he believes? Those to whom Jesus declares "I never knew you" clearly had faith - they were able to perform mighty deeds in his name. Those who did not believe (the seven sons of Sceva, for example) could not perform mighty deeds in Christ's name.

      Where does scripture declare that faith gives rise to good works? Does it not rather say that works perfect faith?
      sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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      • #63
        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        If you don't want to accept that Abraham was not declared righteous because he believed - despite the scriptural record - there is nothing to be done on that account.

        So on to the next point:

        Where does the scripture say that a man is deemed righteous just because he believes?
        ". . . But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ." -- Romans 4:5.
        ". . . Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. . . ." -- Romans 3:25-26.
        ". . . Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. . . ." -- John 5:24.
        ". . . Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. . . ." -- John 6:47.
        Then there is John 3:16, John 3:18, 1 John 5:13 and more.

        Those to whom Jesus declares "I never knew you" clearly had faith - they were able to perform mighty deeds in his name.
        No. Jesus argued that they were NOT doing God's will, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. . . ." It was their claims of doing works, saying, "have we not?" Jesus argued, "ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:21-23.)

        Those who did not believe (the seven sons of Sceva, for example) could not perform mighty deeds in Christ's name.
        (Acts 19:13-17.)

        Where does scripture declare that faith gives rise to good works?
        ". . . For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. . . ."


        Does it not rather say that works perfect faith?
        (James 2:22-23, Genesis 22:12.)

        You see, the works of sin prevent works from counting. (". . . wages of sin . . . " Romans 6:23.) Only after forgiveness as an unmerited gift can any good works have any merit.
        Last edited by 37818; 01-11-2018, 09:45 AM.
        . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          In your opinion, would the Roman Catholic Church fit your definition?
          Given that the Roman Catholic Church did not exist in the first century CE, why would it?
          "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
            Given that the Roman Catholic Church did not exist in the first century CE, why would it?
            His opening post is a bit awkwardly worded, but I don't think he intended to imply that all false cults existed in the first century CE - merely that false cults were recognized as such by the apostolic church and should be recognizable as such today.
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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            • #66
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              His opening post is a bit awkwardly worded, but I don't think he intended to imply that all false cults existed in the first century CE - merely that false cults were recognized as such by the apostolic church and should be recognizable as such today.
              Perhaps it would be more correct to state that there were other views that Paul did not care for and other leaders whom he felt were "stealing his thunder". As with any cult leader he wanted his beliefs, and his beliefs alone, to remain the only recognised views to be adopted.
              "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

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