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Recognizing the false Christian cults.

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Abu Njoroge View Post
    Perhaps all mormons dont believe the Cain theory? I hope not because Ive had a lot of positive talks with Mormons in my home town.
    I believe many Mormons are ignorant of what their religion teaches. The Mormon church has tried to move away from this teaching in recent years and does not emphasize it so it is likely many are unaware.

    I live in an area with many Mormons and most of them are very kind people who give me no reason to suspect them of racism on a personal level.
    Last edited by KingsGambit; 05-06-2017, 11:57 AM. Reason: typo: changing "his" to "this"
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
      Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

      Paul makes it clear that we are not saved by works, but then good works come right back in at verse 10 as what those who are in Christ Jesus are created to do. Obedience that comes by faith then is precisely the good works that God has instructed His people to do in His law. So those verses affirm that those in Messiah do good works, that faith expresses itself as obedience, and grace teaches us to live obediently. However, when you talk about grace alone, faith one, and Christ alone, the important role that works play in the Christian walk is deemphasized.
      These good works follow salvation, they do not have an active role in bringing salvation.
      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
        These good works follow salvation, they do not have an active role in bringing salvation.
        Sort of. A Christian has been saved, is being saved, and will be saved. Consequently, works come with salvation, and show its progress; one is not being saved if there is no evidence of good works.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
          I think they're disputing some of the points you're making, or at the very least your wordings of them.
          Originally posted by Adrift View Post
          I apologize too if I came off too demanding. I wasn't attempting to take 37818's side in your discussion with him. Half the time I can't figure out what he's talking about, the other half the time when I can figure out what he's saying I find his views to be unusual and sometimes unorthodox, but when you mentioned Gnostics and Protestants in the same paragraph warning flags went up for me. It seemed to me that you were throwing Protestantism under the bus in order to counter 37818's post by weakly linking Protestantism with some variation of Gnostic belief. Hopefully you can see why a Protestant may reject that idea. If that wasn't your intention then all is good.
          Talking in generalities are likely false. What was it I said that needs to be disputed in this thread? And what was it I said that you did not understand in this thread as to what I had meant?

          And a specific, what is it about the keeping the Law to love God above all else has do do with identifying false Christian cults?
          Last edited by 37818; 05-07-2017, 11:15 AM.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            They existed in the Apostles time. And the genuine Christians recognize blatant cases. Three key things besides denying essentials of the faith. The false Christian cult makes claims that its centralized human organization is the genuine Church. Claims other authority over correctly understanding the Bible. And denies the gospel of grace alone through faith alone in God's Christ alone.
            1) The false Christian cults make an exclusive claim to be the true church.
            2) Make claims for an authority besides the written word of God.
            3) Deny salvation [eternal life] is a current possession of a Christian by God's grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
            Last edited by 37818; 05-07-2017, 11:35 AM.
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • #51
              It would be good to review your points in the light of the attached Bible texts.

              1. The false Christian cult makes claims that its centralized human organization is the genuine Church.
              Acts 15:1-2, 6, 23, points to a “centralized human organization” of Apostles and Elders in Jerusalem guiding the congregations.


              2. Claims other authority over correctly understanding the Bible.
              2 Thessalonians 3:6 & 3:14 points to Pauls claim to only have right teachings.

              3. And denies the gospel of grace alone through faith alone in God's Christ alone.
              James 2:18-26 James points out that “faith” must have works also.
              BU

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                It would be good to review your points in the light of the attached Bible texts.

                1. The false Christian cult makes claims that its centralized human organization is the genuine Church.
                Acts 15:1-2, 6, 23, points to a “centralized human organization” of Apostles and Elders in Jerusalem guiding the congregations.
                Acts 15:1-2, 6, 23
                . . . And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said], Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. . . .

                . . .And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. . . .

                . . . And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: . . .
                The Apostles who are a key part of the foundation of the origins of Christ's church were yet alive (Ephesians 2:20) and the last of the New Covenant Holy Scriptures were not yet written including this account at the time it took place. And you are making an appeal to one such document which is an apostolic authority. Being Holy Scripture, not being any current claimed central organization. All such current "church" bodies make some kind of claim to these 66 books.

                2. Claims other authority over correctly understanding the Bible.
                2 Thessalonians 3:6 & 3:14 points to Paul's claim to only have right teachings.
                2 Thessalonians 3:6, 14,
                . . . Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. . . .

                . . . And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. . . .
                Yes - in the apostolic authority of the then Apostle Paul and other Apostles. What we have now is this writing and other Holy Scripture of the 27 books of the 66 books.

                3. And denies the gospel of grace alone through faith alone in God's Christ alone.
                James 2:18-26 James points out that “faith” must have works also.
                BU
                James 2:18-26,
                . . . Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. . . .


                I had already answered this here:
                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                Your understanding is mistaken. The Justification by works only applies to one who has been already justified without works (see Romans 4:1-5 with James 2:23). Abraham was in fact justified without works (Genesis 15:6) and much later justified by his works (Genesis 22:12) some 37 to 50 years later.
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  Acts 15:1-2, 6, 23
                  . . . And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said], Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. . . .

                  . . .And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. . . .

                  . . . And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: . . .
                  The Apostles who are a key part of the foundation of the origins of Christ's church were yet alive (Ephesians 2:20) and the last of the New Covenant Holy Scriptures were not yet written including this account at the time it took place. And you are making an appeal to one such document which is an apostolic authority. Being Holy Scripture, not being any current claimed central organization. All such current "church" bodies make some kind of claim to these 66 books.


                  2 Thessalonians 3:6, 14,
                  . . . Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. . . .

                  . . . And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. . . .
                  Yes - in the apostolic authority of the then Apostle Paul and other Apostles. What we have now is this writing and other Holy Scripture of the 27 books of the 66 books.


                  James 2:18-26,
                  . . . Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. . . .


                  I had already answered this here:

                  The Justification by works only applies to one who has been already justified without works (see Romans 4:1-5 with James 2:23). Abraham was in fact justified without works (Genesis 15:6) and much later justified by his works (Genesis 22:12) some 37 to 50 years later.
                  Which is to say; you have admitted that he was justified by his works, and not by faith alone. The time delay doesn't affect the basics of the claim.
                  So - justification by faith alone ...
                  Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Did Paul say this? Surely not. Or is it possible that there are two groups of law - the one being the law of Moses, the other; the law of Christ?
                  Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (faith doesn't even rate a mention here as a factor in justification.)

                  Romans 3: 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (not, "without deeds of any kind" but "without deeds of the law".
                  16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Justified by faith, not our own, but that of Christ Jesus.

                  Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. And here, we are said to be justified by his blood.

                  The picture is VERY complex, but even in these few verses, the claim that we are justified by faith ALONE is demonstrated to be false.
                  1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                    Which is to say; you have admitted that he was justified by his works, and not by faith alone. The time delay doesn't affect the basics of the claim.
                    So - justification by faith alone ...
                    Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Did Paul say this? Surely not. Or is it possible that there are two groups of law - the one being the law of Moses, the other; the law of Christ?
                    Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (faith doesn't even rate a mention here as a factor in justification.)

                    Romans 3: 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (not, "without deeds of any kind" but "without deeds of the law".
                    16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Justified by faith, not our own, but that of Christ Jesus.

                    Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. And here, we are said to be justified by his blood.

                    The picture is VERY complex, but even in these few verses, the claim that we are justified by faith ALONE is demonstrated to be false.
                    James 2:24
                    You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone.
                    BU

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                      James 2:24
                      You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone.
                      BU
                      The word under immediate review was "justify" BU - "righteous" has been discussed before.
                      1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                        Which is to say; you have admitted that he was justified by his works, and not by faith alone. The time delay doesn't affect the basics of the claim.
                        So - justification by faith alone ...
                        Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Did Paul say this? Surely not. Or is it possible that there are two groups of law - the one being the law of Moses, the other; the law of Christ?
                        Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (faith doesn't even rate a mention here as a factor in justification.)

                        Romans 3: 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (not, "without deeds of any kind" but "without deeds of the law".
                        16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Justified by faith, not our own, but that of Christ Jesus.

                        Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. And here, we are said to be justified by his blood.

                        The picture is VERY complex, but even in these few verses, the claim that we are justified by faith ALONE is demonstrated to be false.
                        Then you are in danger of having your name removed from the book of life (Revelation 20:15; Matthew 7:23; 1 John 1:8, 10; Ezekiel 18:4; Psalm 69:27-28; Romans 6:23a; Ezekiel 18:32;James 5:20).

                        ". . . And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: . . ." -- James 2:23.

                        ". . . For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ." -- Romans 4:3-5.

                        ". . . And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. . . ." -- Genesis 15:6.

                        ". . . For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works . . . ." -- Ephesians 2:8-10.

                        What you are failing to understand, is that, unless one is first counted as righteous without works, sin will negate any works (Matthew 7:22-23). Under unforgiven sin (Romans 3:23) works of righteousness cannot be credited! (Matthew 7:23.)
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                          The word under immediate review was "justify" BU - "righteous" has been discussed before.
                          Romans 5:9
                          Much more, then, since we have now been declared righteous by his blood, will we be saved through him from wrath.

                          OK.

                          Still one cannot be Justified or declared righteous if one does not put faith to work, e.g. Jesus said to preach at Matt 24:14 & Acts 1:8 so if one does not do that (a work of faith) then one is not obeying Jesus, thus not justified or declared righteous. Or stop telling lies, or stop stealing or stop being immoral (a work of faith or obeidience to God) etc. etc..
                          BU

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post

                            ". . . And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: . . ." -- James 2:23.

                            ". . . For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ." -- Romans 4:3-5.
                            James 2:20-23
                            But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled that says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he came to be called Jehovah’s friend.

                            Please get the context right!
                            BU

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                              James 2:20-23
                              But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled that says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he came to be called Jehovah’s friend.

                              Please get the context right!
                              BU
                              You need to get the contexts right. And then we can discuss this.

                              The contexts are Genesis 15:6 and Genesis 22:12. Many years apart. Abraham faith without works (Romans 4:4-5) came years before his works (Genesis 22:12) in fulfillment (James 2:23, Genesis 15:6).
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                You need to get the contexts right. And then we can discuss this.

                                The contexts are Genesis 15:6 and Genesis 22:12. Many years apart. Abraham faith without works (Romans 4:4-5) came years before his works (Genesis 22:12) in fulfillment (James 2:23, Genesis 15:6).
                                I do not think that Genesis 15:6 says what you want it to say.

                                Q: According to Genesis 15:6 is Abraham righteous, or is it belief that is righteous?
                                And flowing from that answer, is Paul in saying "faith was reckoned for righteousness" (Rom 4:5,9), making a claim that "a person's faith makes him righteous," or is he making a claim that a person, whether circumcised or not, can be righteous?
                                Rom 4:9 ελογισθη τω αβρααμ ηπιστις αυτου εις δικαιοσυνην - to Abraham, his faith was reckoned unto/for/toward righteousness ... Nothing is directly reckoned righteous in that statement: not faith, and certainly not Abraham.
                                λογιζεται η πιστις αυτου εις δικαιοσυνην (v4) ... faith gets evaluated
                                (v9) ελογισθη τω αβρααμ η πιστις εις δικαιοσυνην (v9) faith got evaluated
                                1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                                Comment

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