Announcement

Collapse

Comparative Religions 101 Guidelines

Welcome to Comp Religions, this is where the sights and sounds of the many world religions come together in a big World's Fair type atmosphere, without those delicious funnel cakes.

World Religions is a theist only type place, but that does not exclude certain religionists who practice non-theistic faiths ala Buddhism. If you are not sure, ask a moderator.

This is not a place where we argue the existence / non-existence of God.

And as usual, the forum rules apply.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Recognizing the false Christian cults.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    Well, are those extra issues false? Question: Does the "Holy Catholic Church" and the "Eastern Orthodoxy" deny any essentials of the Christian faith? Did I say they denied the essentials?
    The first point is flawed, in as much as its not clear enough to distinguish a visible Church with a visible human head (the pope) and Apostolic Succession, but which is institude by Christ (the true head) and lead by the Holy Spirit. What do you think the earliest Church was under the apostles? There was already hierarchy among them, the Apostles had the right to teach and define doctrine, to interpret scriptures and bind people to certain readings of them, which is what they do in the letters we have, etc... That authority can't just be waved away, or justified in light of scripture, because most of scripture didn't exist back then, and even then hadn't been collected, and even if collected, was so scarce, expensive and rare that they had to be chained to the pulpits to prevent them from being stolen.

    Your second point is merely sola scriptura.

    Your third point is against just protestant doctrine. Oddly enough Catholics and Eastern Orthodox do not deny that we're saved by grace alone, and that any merit we have is imputed by grace and that without grace our works have no merit. What we deny is the Gnosticism that its merely enough to intellectually recognize that Christ is Risen, and "the essentials".

    So I'm pretty much right, I think, that with those three extra points you're targeting all the older forms of Christianity, from Catholics, to Coptics, to Eastern Orthodox.

    Christ said, "I will build My church and the gates of the realm of the dead shall not prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18).

    So there has always been Christ's church. An essay.
    What He says is true of course. The Catholic Church has always been, and will never fall.

    I'm still not sure how you'd maintain the truth of this saying of Christ, against the reality that baptists, or Protestantism in any codified form didn't exist until around the 16th Century. Either you'll have to accept that what the Roman Catholic says is true or is merely heterodox (and so one could firmly believe all of it without loss of salvation), or you'd be forced to accept that not only did the Holy Spirit neglect to maintain the truth in Christians so much so that basically all of them fell into grievous error pretty much immediately, and didn't make this broadly known until more than a millennium afterwards.
    Last edited by Leonhard; 04-05-2015, 02:49 AM.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
      What we deny is the Gnosticism that its merely enough to intellectually recognize that Christ is Risen, and "the essentials".
      What?!

      First of all, how is following what is essentially Romans 10:9 (If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.) in any way a form of Gnosticism, and second of all, are you calling Protestants Gnostics?

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
        What?!

        First of all, how is following what is essentially Romans 10:9 (If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.) in any way a form of Gnosticism, and second of all, are you calling Protestants Gnostics?
        I did not percieve this as an attack on Protestants, it is I presume based on a charge made by Irenaeus against the Valentinians whom iirc made the claim that spiritual people could not sin, only material and animal people could, and that gnosis(knowledge) not faith is salvic.

        I think Lepnhard is (rightly) distinguishing between intellectually affirming the holy truths of our faith, and contrasting against actually believing them.
        Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
          I did not percieve this as an attack on Protestants
          Huh. Well I guess I'm a bit confused then. When Leonhard wrote "Your third point is against just protestant doctrine." was he saying that 37818 was against Protestant doctrine, or was he saying that he (Leonhard/the RCC) was against a certain Protestant doctrine?

          I think Lepnhard is (rightly) distinguishing between intellectually affirming the holy truths of our faith, and contrasting against actually believing them.
          Hmm. Using the dictionary definition of "belief", belief means to intellectually affirm, so I'm not sure I see any distinction there. Maybe you meant the difference between intellectually acknowledging the truths of the faith (which even the demons do), and actually having faith, which is assenting to those truths, putting trust in Christ, and living those truths out so that good works follow.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
            Huh. Well I guess I'm a bit confused then. When Leonhard wrote "Your third point is against just protestant doctrine." was he saying that 37818 was against Protestant doctrine, or was he saying that he (Leonhard/the RCC) was against a certain Protestant doctrine?



            Hmm. Using the dictionary definition of "belief", belief means to intellectually affirm, so I'm not sure I see any distinction there. Maybe you meant the difference between intellectually acknowledging the truths of the faith (which even the demons do), and actually having faith, which is assenting to those truths, putting trust in Christ, and living those truths out so that good works follow.
            I think Leonhard made a typographical error, and meant to type "again" not "against."
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              I think Leonhard made a typographical error, and meant to type "again" not "against."
              Yup.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                First of all, how is following what is essentially Romans 10:9 (If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.) in any way a form of Gnosticism, and second of all, are you calling Protestants Gnostics?
                I would point out that you shouldn't quote mine, and use that as a method of exegesis. Weighing in on everything that St. Paul says, its clear that he calls people to radical conversion of the lives, turning away from their sins, and makes admonishments that those who don't will be damned.

                This is not in any way inconsistent with what is being said here, because the Letter of James makes clear that faith without works is dead.

                Comment


                • #23
                  The 'Gnosticism' part wasn't meant to say that protestants are gnostics, clearly they're not. However I think there's a gnostic tendency with the whole "Do you believe that Christ rose from the dead... good that its! You're on your way to Heaven, no matter what you do." Neither Lutherans, Calvinists or any other protestant has really held to this, but its a fairly popular understanding. It teaches that its the gnosis, the knowledge, that Christ rose from the dead, which saves. That acknowledgement is enough, but conversion and repentance is irrelevant.

                  When I said that the other points he lists are merely protestant doctrine, I'm not attacking protestant doctrine (I don't believe in it, but I didn't make that kind of point), I merely meant that he was setting out points that are meant to simple exclude Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy because they focus on a visible hierarchy and tradition.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                    I would point out that you shouldn't quote mine, and use that as a method of exegesis. Weighing in on everything that St. Paul says, its clear that he calls people to radical conversion of the lives, turning away from their sins, and makes admonishments that those who don't will be damned.

                    This is not in any way inconsistent with what is being said here, because the Letter of James makes clear that faith without works is dead.
                    Citing Romans 10:9 is quote-mining?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                      The 'Gnosticism' part wasn't meant to say that protestants are gnostics, clearly they're not. However I think there's a gnostic tendency with the whole "Do you believe that Christ rose from the dead... good that its! You're on your way to Heaven, no matter what you do." Neither Lutherans, Calvinists or any other protestant has really held to this, but its a fairly popular understanding. It teaches that its the gnosis, the knowledge, that Christ rose from the dead, which saves. That acknowledgement is enough, but conversion and repentance is irrelevant.
                      If no one teaches it, how is it a fairly popular understanding? Why did you even bring it up?

                      When I said that the other points he lists are merely protestant doctrine, I'm not attacking protestant doctrine (I don't believe in it, but I didn't make that kind of point), I merely meant that he was setting out points that are meant to simple exclude Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy because they focus on a visible hierarchy and tradition.
                      What specifically in his post were you asserting is Protestant doctrine? Can you spell out what you think Protestant doctrine is?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                        What specifically in his post were you asserting is Protestant doctrine?
                        1) That the is not a Church is a visible, apostolic hierarchy.
                        2) Sola Scriptura.
                        3) Salvation by faith alone.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                          Citing Romans 10:9 is quote-mining?
                          Its one line. I don't like interpreting the Bible like that, just plucking out a line as if it exists in a vacuum. The whole context of the verse for that is the lack of faith in Israel and the need for people to go out and mission the word. So here he's not talking about someone who happens to believe in Christ's Resurrection, but someone who actively on a mission.

                          This is not the same as someone who regularly falls into sexual depravity, gambles on the side, but goes to Church every Sunday and chews the fat with the others, and therefore thinks that his belief in Christ means his salvation is safe.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                            Its one line. I don't like interpreting the Bible like that, just plucking out a line as if it exists in a vacuum. The whole context of the verse for that is the lack of faith in Israel and the need for people to go out and mission the word. So here he's not talking about someone who happens to believe in Christ's Resurrection, but someone who actively on a mission.

                            This is not the same as someone who regularly falls into sexual depravity, gambles on the side, but goes to Church every Sunday and chews the fat with the others, and therefore thinks that his belief in Christ means his salvation is safe.
                            So you think verse 9 is only for Israel, and then, only in the process of missionizing? Did you not note that verse 12 says that there is no distinction between the Jew and the Greek, and verse 13 that says that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                              1) That the is not a Church is a visible, apostolic hierarchy.
                              2) Sola Scriptura.
                              3) Salvation by faith alone.
                              Thank you. I note you skipped my other questions.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                                I note you skipped my other questions.
                                I'm sorry Adrift, I wasn't aware that I had to answer all questions that you in particular ask me.

                                Some of those questions required fairly long answers, and I didn't find it important.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by 37818, 04-02-2015, 08:31 AM
                                70 responses
                                37,378 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Working...
                                X