It REALLY is the religion of peace

[pancreasman]

I don't deny this but as I pointed out in the post before the one you responded to:

From the start Muslims are encouraged to spread their religion at the point of the sword. When Christians do this (as they undeniably have) they go directly against what Christianity teaches.

In apologetics, we are often given a defence of Jewish barbarity that they were barbarous times and harshness was the only road open to them. Given the situation at the time of the birth of Islam, could we not use that same defence? I often feel Islam is more akin to OT Jewish faith than Christianity.

[Truthseeker]

The Quran (the holy book itself) and Hadith (stories from the life of Muhammad, who is generally understood to be the perfect example of virtue, so his example is authoritative) . . .

Mohammed did not teach peace and tolerance, but instead led armies and ordered the assassination of his enemies.

One Bad Pig claimed before that post, "Islam was born in treachery and conquest."

So, whatever Muhammad did as the prophet is to be taken as authoritative example. One can't have an empire without breaking any eggs. The answer to the OP seems obvious now.

[shunyadragon]

Another thing to consider is that no one has the original Koran as such. It has been altered and old versions destroyed. This has happened more than once. I do not know if any of the old versions ever survived, but the currently accepted Koran is much later in time than Muhammad. This is in contrast to the existence of many old biblical texts and fragments that can be compared to come quite close to what the original text said.

Yeah, some texts and scrapes exist, but there are many gaps where it happened with the Bible.

Are you referring to the worshipers of the Paladians?

[robrecht]

From what I understand, the word "Islam" is not translated "peace", but "surrender" or "submission".

Some have unsuccessfully tried to claim that the Arabic word "Islam" is derived from the Arabic word “Al-Salaam” which means peace. But this is incorrect. In fact, the root of Islam is "al-silm" which means "submission" or "surrender." It is understood to mean "submission to Allah." While they could argue that surrendering to Allah brings peace, that is not what the definition is. Mohammed did not teach peace and tolerance, but instead led armies and ordered the assassination of his enemies.

I don't know Arabic, but I am pretty sure you guys are talking about the same root word with a relatively wide semantic range of meanings, one of which is 'peace' in both Hebrew and Aramaic. In fact I suspect that this is the primary reason why people speak of Islam as a religion of peace.

Note the similarity of greetings in Hebrew and Arabic: שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם and السلام عليكم As-salamu alaykum, peace be upon you.

I don't think most of the Canaanites, except maybe the Hivites and the Gibeonites, would have thought of the 'Judaism' of Joshua as a religion of peace.

[One Bad Pig]

It wasn't meant to be a negative comment. It IS a conservative Christian site and most people who post here ARE conservative. Therefore there will be a preponderance of conservative opinion on Islam here. It's one opinion and it's valid. Poisoning the well? Paranoid much?

That's not what you said earlier. In context, your comment was at the least dismissive of what you anticipated coming. There may well be a preponderance of conservative opinion on Islam here, but I think Cerealboy is bright enough to recognize that.

Could you post a reference for this please?

My impression, based on recollection, was that Ahmadiyya Muslims were pacifists, as were Sufis. I was right about the first, but wrong about the second. The Dawat-e-Islami mentioned in the second article was founded all of 33 years ago; I haven't found how large it is supposed to be, but I highly doubt it's significant. The Ahmadiyyas are maybe 10% of Muslims (I've seen estimates ranging from "tens of millions" to "170 million").

Let's remember that other religions have been used to justify mass slaughter. In the Serbian ethnic cleansing (of muslims) Serb militia pasted pictures of the Madonna on their rifles. And so it goes.

What other religions were founded on the back of mass slaughter?

I would argue most people, regardless of their religion, want to live in peace with their families and their neighbours.

I said something about that.

There will always be hotheads and extremists and it is they who capture the headlines.

Most religions weren't founded by hotheads and extremists. Muhammed was just clever enough to hide his extremism until he had the might to promulgate it.

[shunyadragon]

Another thing to consider is that no one has the original Koran as such. It has been altered and old versions destroyed. This has happened more than once. I do not know if any of the old versions ever survived, but the currently accepted Koran is much later in time than Muhammad. This is in contrast to the existence of many old biblical texts and fragments that can be compared to come quite close to what the original text said.

The oldest section of the Quran dates to within 20 to 40 years of the life of Muhammad.

[Jedidiah]

Yeah, some texts and scrapes exist, but there are many gaps where it happened with the Bible.

Are you referring to the worshipers of the Paladians?

Could you translate this into English for me?

[shunyadragon]

In apologetics, we are often given a defence of Jewish barbarity that they were barbarous times and harshness was the only road open to them. Given the situation at the time of the birth of Islam, could we not use that same defence? I often feel Islam is more akin to OT Jewish faith than Christianity.

To give a more equitable view of problem of barbarity of religions, you would have to include the problem of barbarity in the history of Christianity in the discussion.

[Cow Poke]

To give a more equitable view of problem of barbarity of religions, you would have to include the problem of barbarity in the history of Christianity in the discussion.

Historically, sure. Practically, one needs to look at how those religions play out today. How they have "grown up", or not.

[shunyadragon]

Historically, sure. Practically, one needs to look at how those religions play out today. How they have "grown up", or not.

The bottom line is there are no angels, even today. To add, you cannot negate nor justify the history of all three religions.
l
From the Irish Ballad of Kilkenny by Frank Doonan

The glint of the Diabhal grin
is glimpst in the shadows
need not snakes, wolves and witches
to tempt proud Irishman and Norman alike.

Not a chirp of a bird, nor a breath of wind,
The smoke of silent guns and bombs settle like bog fog
Only sounds of moans and the dripping of blood
Can be heard when the battle ends.

Two cats boasted there was one cat too many.
They bit, scratched, fitted, and clawed.
Nary two cats nor one cat survived of any,
Leaving only claws and the tips of their tails scattered.

Diabolic schemes, and righteous causes remain,
Prideful warring cousins bearing bloody gold crosses;
Dividing Ireland and Kilkenny alike. Where the Statutes of Kilkenny failed
The cleaving of the cross of gold succeeded

The cloven hoof fits fine in the boot black,
Whether Orange or Green gun and bomb.
For all who lay in the street from the deeds of pride in black,
The blood on cobbled stone remains the same.

Angels at the Kyteller Inn leaving their wings at the door
Tarnished halos on the floor with blessings and promises,
Things to be, or not to be, vain hopes for more.
Leading the sheep to the will of the goats through arched door.

[Cow Poke]

The bottom line is there are no angels, even today.

Oh ye of so little faith....

WonderfulClarenceGeorge.jpg

[shunyadragon]

Oh ye of so little faith....

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3233[/ATTACH]

. . . Practically?

[Cow Poke]

. . . Practically?

It was a Wonderful Life!

[shunyadragon]

It was a Wonderful Life!

Tripping through the daisies with Alice In Wonderland.

[Cow Poke]

Tripping through the daisies with Alice In Wonderland.

Better than tiptoeing through the tulips with Tiny Tim.