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It REALLY is the religion of peace

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  • #31
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    I don't deny this but as I pointed out in the post before the one you responded to:

    From the start Muslims are encouraged to spread their religion at the point of the sword. When Christians do this (as they undeniably have) they go directly against what Christianity teaches.
    In apologetics, we are often given a defence of Jewish barbarity that they were barbarous times and harshness was the only road open to them. Given the situation at the time of the birth of Islam, could we not use that same defence? I often feel Islam is more akin to OT Jewish faith than Christianity.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
      The Quran (the holy book itself) and Hadith (stories from the life of Muhammad, who is generally understood to be the perfect example of virtue, so his example is authoritative) . . .


      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      Mohammed did not teach peace and tolerance, but instead led armies and ordered the assassination of his enemies.

      One Bad Pig claimed before that post, "Islam was born in treachery and conquest."

      So, whatever Muhammad did as the prophet is to be taken as authoritative example. One can't have an empire without breaking any eggs. The answer to the OP seems obvious now.
      The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

      [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
        Another thing to consider is that no one has the original Koran as such. It has been altered and old versions destroyed. This has happened more than once. I do not know if any of the old versions ever survived, but the currently accepted Koran is much later in time than Muhammad. This is in contrast to the existence of many old biblical texts and fragments that can be compared to come quite close to what the original text said.
        Yeah, some texts and scrapes exist, but there are many gaps where it happened with the Bible.

        Are you referring to the worshipers of the Paladians?
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          From what I understand, the word "Islam" is not translated "peace", but "surrender" or "submission".
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post


          Some have unsuccessfully tried to claim that the Arabic word "Islam" is derived from the Arabic word “Al-Salaam” which means peace. But this is incorrect. In fact, the root of Islam is "al-silm" which means "submission" or "surrender." It is understood to mean "submission to Allah." While they could argue that surrendering to Allah brings peace, that is not what the definition is. Mohammed did not teach peace and tolerance, but instead led armies and ordered the assassination of his enemies.
          I don't know Arabic, but I am pretty sure you guys are talking about the same root word with a relatively wide semantic range of meanings, one of which is 'peace' in both Hebrew and Aramaic. In fact I suspect that this is the primary reason why people speak of Islam as a religion of peace.

          Note the similarity of greetings in Hebrew and Arabic: שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם‎ shālôm ʻalêḵem and السلام عليكم ‎As-salamu alaykum, peace be upon you.

          I don't think most of the Canaanites, except maybe the Hivites and the Gibeonites, would have thought of the 'Judaism' of Joshua as a religion of peace.
          Last edited by robrecht; 12-17-2014, 09:09 PM.
          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
            It wasn't meant to be a negative comment. It IS a conservative Christian site and most people who post here ARE conservative. Therefore there will be a preponderance of conservative opinion on Islam here. It's one opinion and it's valid. Poisoning the well? Paranoid much?
            That's not what you said earlier. In context, your comment was at the least dismissive of what you anticipated coming. There may well be a preponderance of conservative opinion on Islam here, but I think Cerealboy is bright enough to recognize that.
            Could you post a reference for this please?
            My impression, based on recollection, was that Ahmadiyya Muslims were pacifists, as were Sufis. I was right about the first, but wrong about the second. The Dawat-e-Islami mentioned in the second article was founded all of 33 years ago; I haven't found how large it is supposed to be, but I highly doubt it's significant. The Ahmadiyyas are maybe 10% of Muslims (I've seen estimates ranging from "tens of millions" to "170 million").
            Let's remember that other religions have been used to justify mass slaughter. In the Serbian ethnic cleansing (of muslims) Serb militia pasted pictures of the Madonna on their rifles. And so it goes.
            What other religions were founded on the back of mass slaughter?
            I would argue most people, regardless of their religion, want to live in peace with their families and their neighbours.
            I said something about that.
            There will always be hotheads and extremists and it is they who capture the headlines.
            Most religions weren't founded by hotheads and extremists. Muhammed was just clever enough to hide his extremism until he had the might to promulgate it.
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
              Another thing to consider is that no one has the original Koran as such. It has been altered and old versions destroyed. This has happened more than once. I do not know if any of the old versions ever survived, but the currently accepted Koran is much later in time than Muhammad. This is in contrast to the existence of many old biblical texts and fragments that can be compared to come quite close to what the original text said.
              The oldest section of the Quran dates to within 20 to 40 years of the life of Muhammad.

              Source: http://www.commdiginews.com/world-news/middle-east/worlds-oldest-quran-discovered-and-may-be-linked-to-imam-ali-30011/



              which may be the oldest copy of the Quran in the world.

              WASHINGTON, November 19, 2014 — Researchers from the Project Coranica at the University Library in Tübingen, Germany have discovered a copy of the Quran that may be the oldest in the world, dating to within 20-40 years of the death of Islam’s Prophet Muhammad. The copy of the Quran, dubbed Ma VI 165 by scientists, appears in the famous “Kufic script”, popularized by Imam Ali ibn Abu Talib who moved the center of the Islamic government to Kufa in the after being elected as “Caliph” in 656 AD. The manuscript “with a 95.4% statistical probability can be dated to the period between Ad 649 -675,” according to Medieval Histories Magazine.

              The timeline for when the manuscript was created, coupled with the fact that Imam Ali was one of the few early Muslims that was literate, lends strongly to the notion that this manuscript is linked to the Imam. The theory is bolstered by the fact that of the first several Muslim leaders after the death of Prophet Muhammad, Imam Ali was the only one who had memorized the Quran in its entirety and became a “Hafiz.”

              That the manuscript is on a high quality parchment that has survived for more than 1,339 years – with minimal preservation methods employed, further indicates that the document was created for official purposes, perhaps in relation to the work of Imam Ali’s Islamic government.

              Imam Ali is viewed by Shiite Muslims as the true successor to Prophet Muhammad, and the first in a line of holy leaders tasked with bringing justice to the world. For Sunni Muslims, Imam Ali is revered as the fourth and final “righteous” Caliph.

              The manuscript will be on display in Germany, as the University Library states “This coming autumn one of the parchment fragments will be on view to the public in Antwerp in the exhibition ‘Holy Scriptures – Holy Places. Judaism, Christianity, Islam’, in the Hendrik Conscience Heritage Library. This will be a perfect opportunity to bring these new findings to the attention of a wider audience.”

              According to university representative Dr. Eva Mira Youssef-Grob, “The Coranica project includes a module named computatio radiocarbonica where palaeographical analysis and dating of the oldest manuscripts of the Qurʾān will be supplemented by scientific methods such as radicarbon dating…

              “The results for manuscripts dated by colophon and their C14-age will be set in relation to the measured values ​​of undated pieces…

              “With this research, the actual precision and significance of C14 datings can be determined for early manuscripts of the Qurʾān. The selection forms a representative sample from the known manuscripts in ḥiǧāzī ductus, which are considered the oldest written textual witnesses of the Qur’an – their temporal proximity to the proclamation of Muḥammad is still discussed today.”

              The MA VI 165 manuscript appears to contain a large section of the Quran, from Chapter 17, verse 37 to Chapter 36, verse 57. Interestingly, the first verse of the manuscript seems to poetically foretell the preservation of the document. The first part of the verse is translated as “Nor walk on the earth with insolence: for thou canst not tear the earth apart…”

              The entire manuscript can be viewed here. Up until today, the famous Sana’a manuscript has been viewed as the oldest manuscript, dating back to almost exactly 671 AD. The MA VI 165 script cannot be narrowed down further than betwee 649 AD to 675 AD, so now both documents are tied for the “oldest copy” record.

              The MA VI 165 script is viewed as a “very early Quran” because it is written in something called the “Hijazi” variant, a type of Arabic writing that is sloped and has a distinctive style. Quranic manuscripts that utilize the Hijazi variant typically draw immediate attention from researchers, as the script is only used in very early Quran manuscripts.

              Imam Ali has gained great attention this year, having been quoted by notable celebrities and politicians. In the most recent instance, NFL player Pierre Garcon posted a famous saying of Imam Ali on social media.

              © Copyright Original Source

              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                Yeah, some texts and scrapes exist, but there are many gaps where it happened with the Bible.

                Are you referring to the worshipers of the Paladians?
                Could you translate this into English for me?
                Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                  In apologetics, we are often given a defence of Jewish barbarity that they were barbarous times and harshness was the only road open to them. Given the situation at the time of the birth of Islam, could we not use that same defence? I often feel Islam is more akin to OT Jewish faith than Christianity.
                  To give a more equitable view of problem of barbarity of religions, you would have to include the problem of barbarity in the history of Christianity in the discussion.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    To give a more equitable view of problem of barbarity of religions, you would have to include the problem of barbarity in the history of Christianity in the discussion.
                    Historically, sure. Practically, one needs to look at how those religions play out today. How they have "grown up", or not.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      Historically, sure. Practically, one needs to look at how those religions play out today. How they have "grown up", or not.
                      The bottom line is there are no angels, even today. To add, you cannot negate nor justify the history of all three religions.
                      l
                      From the Irish Ballad of Kilkenny by Frank Doonan

                      The glint of the Diabhal grin
                      is glimpst in the shadows
                      need not snakes, wolves and witches
                      to tempt proud Irishman and Norman alike.

                      Not a chirp of a bird, nor a breath of wind,
                      The smoke of silent guns and bombs settle like bog fog
                      Only sounds of moans and the dripping of blood
                      Can be heard when the battle ends.

                      Two cats boasted there was one cat too many.
                      They bit, scratched, fitted, and clawed.
                      Nary two cats nor one cat survived of any,
                      Leaving only claws and the tips of their tails scattered.

                      Diabolic schemes, and righteous causes remain,
                      Prideful warring cousins bearing bloody gold crosses;
                      Dividing Ireland and Kilkenny alike. Where the Statutes of Kilkenny failed
                      The cleaving of the cross of gold succeeded

                      The cloven hoof fits fine in the boot black,
                      Whether Orange or Green gun and bomb.
                      For all who lay in the street from the deeds of pride in black,
                      The blood on cobbled stone remains the same.

                      Angels at the Kyteller Inn leaving their wings at the door
                      Tarnished halos on the floor with blessings and promises,
                      Things to be, or not to be, vain hopes for more.
                      Leading the sheep to the will of the goats through arched door.
                      Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-22-2014, 06:37 AM.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        The bottom line is there are no angels, even today.
                        Oh ye of so little faith....

                        WonderfulClarenceGeorge.jpg
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          Oh ye of so little faith....

                          [ATTACH=CONFIG]3233[/ATTACH]
                          . . . Practically?
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            . . . Practically?
                            It was a Wonderful Life!
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              It was a Wonderful Life!
                              Tripping through the daisies with Alice In Wonderland.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                Tripping through the daisies with Alice In Wonderland.
                                Better than tiptoeing through the tulips with Tiny Tim.

                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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