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  • #61
    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    Shuny, you claimed (10/23 8:51pm) that I said the purpose of theological reflection is to be some kind of revelation or to change doctrine. But, of course, I never said that. Your quotations of me do not say what you think they do. Read my posts again, more carefully, please: Theological reflection, especially as part of a larger school of theology (eg, Antochene, Alexandrian, Franciscan, Dominican) can certainly contribute to the development of doctrine. It can indeed perform this role. See, eg, the role of the Franciscan school of theology in defining what eventually became the dogmas of the Immaculate Conception and Papal Infallibility as later defined by the Roman Catholic Church in the 19th century. That is not at all the same thing as equating theological reflection with Revelation or saying that the purpose of theological reflection is to change doctrine. I'm sorry you cannot see that, but please do not continue to misrepresent what i have said. I've asked you before, but you declined to answer, . . .
    Answered, you indeed did just as I said:

    Originally posted by robrecht$26

    Without yet turning to the citation from your link, your above description of the role of theological reflection is much too individualistic not only for my personal taste . . . .
    It is how it is defined and used from my sources. Unless you can provide an alternative citation, I can only assume that this is your 'personal view.'

    [quote] . . . but also for describing its role in the Christian intellectual tradition. Within the Christian intellectual tradition, one has major schools of theology that have influenced the development of doctrine from the beginning and into medieval and modern times and, apart from doctrinal development, still provide for rather profound theological pluralism within individual churches, not to mention the differences that exist between denominations. (By the way, I am only speaking of the Christian theological traditions, but similar processes may also be described within Judaism and Islam.)

    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht#41

    Try to at least quote a full sentence at a time and you may be able to better understand. Just because theological reflection has produced new doctrines, sometimes over the course of several centuries, does not mean that the theological reflection was seen (then or now) or ever intended as a form of revelation or to produce new doctrine.



    . . . what would you prefer to call the theological reflection that took place within these theological schools of thought and which contributed to what eventually came to be defined as dogma? If you do not want to call it 'theological reflection', what would you call it???
    That is a different question. I will give it some thought, but NO, it is not Theological Reflection as defined and used in the sources I cited. I of course can cite more if it would help, but I do not think it will.

    You have failed to provide a source that defines Theological Reflection as you use it in the above cited posts as contributing to the formation of doctrines..
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 10-29-2014, 10:00 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      Answered, you indeed did just as I said:

      It is how it is defined and used from my sources. Unless you can provide an alternative citation, I can only assume that this is your 'personal view.'

      . . . but also for describing its role in the Christian intellectual tradition. Within the Christian intellectual tradition, one has major schools of theology that have influenced the development of doctrine from the beginning and into medieval and modern times and, apart from doctrinal development, still provide for rather profound theological pluralism within individual churches, not to mention the differences that exist between denominations. (By the way, I am only speaking of the Christian theological traditions, but similar processes may also be described within Judaism and Islam.)

      Quote Originally Posted by robrecht#41

      Try to at least quote a full sentence at a time and you may be able to better understand. Just because theological reflection has produced new doctrines, sometimes over the course of several centuries, does not mean that the theological reflection was seen (then or now) or ever intended as a form of revelation or to produce new doctrine.

      That is a different question. I will give it some thought, but NO, it is not Theological Reflection as defined and used in the sources I cited. I of course can cite more if it would help, but I do not think it will.

      You have failed to provide a source that defines Theological Reflection as you use it in the above cited posts as contributing to the formation of doctrines..
      False assumption on your part, and certainly not a necessary one. Let's see if you can come up with a better way of describing the process and examples I have given you. Certainly seems like theological reflection to me and that does not entail any peculiar definition of the terms. Did you bother looking them up in the dictionary, as I suggested?
      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by robrecht View Post
        False assumption on your part, and certainly not a necessary one. Let's see if you can come up with a better way of describing the process and examples I have given you. Certainly seems like theological reflection to me and that does not entail any peculiar definition of the terms. Did you bother looking them up in the dictionary, as I suggested?
        Not an assumption on my part. I used academic definitions and usage, and your own words of your unique personal definition not entailing any particular definition has too high a fog index for a constructive dialogue, No good unless you can provide an outside source to justify your use as I did.

        Sure I looked them up, but 'Theological Reflections' is not in the Dictionary. I used legitimate academic sources to provide the definition. You have provided nothing. Still waiting. . .
        Last edited by shunyadragon; 10-29-2014, 01:25 PM.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          Not an assumption on my part. I used academic definitions and usage, and your own words of your unique personal definition not entailing any particular definition has too high a fog index for a constructive dialogue, No good unless you can provide an outside source to justify your use as I did.

          Sure I looked them up, but 'Theological Reflections' is not in the Dictionary. I used legitimate academic sources to provide the definition. You have provided nothing. Still waiting. . .
          You already admitted to the fact of your assumption when you tried to claim it was a necessary assumption (it is not). You will need to look up 'theological' and 'reflection' separately in most dictionaries. Once you have done so, perhaps you could try to explain why you think my use and definition of these terms is somehow incorrect. I've also asked you how you might alternatively describe the phenomenon and examples I have given to you. I assure you there is nothing unusual about how I am using these terms. Once you find them in a dictionary, this should become obvious to you. If not, let me know.
          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by robrecht View Post
            You already admitted to the fact of your assumption when you tried to claim it was a necessary assumption (it is not). You will need to look up 'theological' and 'reflection' separately in most dictionaries. Once you have done so, perhaps you could try to explain why you think my use and definition of these terms is somehow incorrect. I've also asked you how you might alternatively describe the phenomenon and examples I have given to you. I assure you there is nothing unusual about how I am using these terms. Once you find them in a dictionary, this should become obvious to you. If not, let me know.
            Yes I found them in the dictionary, but the definitions did not resolve the issue at hand. The use of the phrase 'Theological Reflections' cannot realistically be equated to the individual words, nonetheless here goes, reflection simply translated to thinking, contemplation, deliberation, meditation or maybe musing. This comes closest to a personal process. To vague and anecdotal to have any meaning broader meaning. When combine with 'Theological' you may describe thinking, contemplation, deliberation of theological questions. Considering the definitions it better fits the personal contemplation and meditation of theological questions in ones personal life. The clear academic definition I cited extends this to small groups, but clearly fits the definition of the individual words.

            You are creating your own 'personal' definition of the 'phrase,' which creates too high a fog index for further dialogue. I have not found any other reference that uses this phrase in the context you use it.

            This thread is supposed to be about UU, where 'Philosophical Reflection' fits better. The following is a good definition:

            Source: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070911113648AAHBrtg



            Philosophical reflection is the activity of utilizing the tools that philosophy provides us to examine our lives, and our most basic beliefs about life. The end goal is to achieve a higher level of understanding which results in rebalancing or changing your life in positive ways i.e. rejecting unimportant things or activities in life in favor of the things which are truly important.

            © Copyright Original Source



            Please note, reflection is very personal in nature. The question of the nature of 'Theological or Philosophical Reflection' would deserve a separate thread.
            Last edited by shunyadragon; 10-29-2014, 06:18 PM.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              Yes I found them in the dictionary, but the definitions did not resolve the issue at hand. The use of the phrase 'Theological Reflections' cannot realistically be equated to the individual words, nonetheless here goes, reflection simply translated to thinking, contemplation, deliberation, meditation or maybe musing. This comes closest to a personal process. To vague and anecdotal to have any meaning broader meaning. When combine with 'Theological' you may describe thinking, contemplation, deliberation of theological questions. Considering the definitions it better fits the personal contemplation and meditation of theological questions in ones personal life. The clear academic definition I cited extends this to small groups, but clearly fits the definition of the individual words.

              You are creating your own 'personal' definition of the 'phrase,' which creates too high a fog index for further dialogue. I have not found any other reference that uses this phrase in the context you use it.

              This thread is supposed to be about UU, where 'Philosophical Reflection' fits better. The following is a good definition:

              Source: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070911113648AAHBrtg



              Philosophical reflection is the activity of utilizing the tools that philosophy provides us to examine our lives, and our most basic beliefs about life. The end goal is to achieve a higher level of understanding which results in rebalancing or changing your life in positive ways i.e. rejecting unimportant things or activities in life in favor of the things which are truly important.

              © Copyright Original Source



              Please note, reflection is very personal in nature. The question of the nature of 'Theological or Philosophical Reflection' would deserve a separate thread.
              I wonder if you even realize that you are precisely demonstrating the truth of my remark to Spartacus that you will not discuss the subtleties of theological reflection. Too funny!

              Your description of the definition of each word is fine. It is indeed what I mean. Yet you say that it only applies to one's personal life, and while that can indeed be very true, it need not only be about one's personal life. Recall that I was speaking of theological schools of thought and theological traditions. For example, the Franciscan school of thought is not merely a single individual thiking or reflecting theologically about his own personal life. It is a whole school of thought. It is shared by a rather large group of scholars and communities over several centuries. Some ideas developed in the Franciscan school of thought eventually contribute to the defintion of dogmas in the Roman Catholic Church several centuries later. In the defintion of the Immaculate Conception, for example, the theological tradition that found expression in the Franciscan school of thought, especially as eventually expressed by John Duns Scotus, was later adopted by the Roman Catholic Church. Members of the Franciscan school of theology do not consider the writings of Bonneventure, William of Occam, Scotus, Roger Bacon, and others to be divinely inspired scriptures, much less do the opposing members of the Dominican school, but all recognize that the church eventally came to accept the tradition of theological reflection in one school as doctrine.

              The Lutheran theological tradition in the Western church or other reform traditions, Protestant and othewise, are likewise not based on new revealed scriptures, but on the theological views and traditions developed first by its founders and later elaborated upon by others. Karl Barth did not view the theological writings of Martin Luther as inspired scripture, but rather as valid theological reflection that did not merely relate to the inidividual personal experience of Martin Luther but the beginnings of a fruitful tradition that he too would contribute to in his own time. It has become a rich and successful school of thought. Lutheran theology does not believe in a separate text or act of special revelation, but it most certainly does have its own character and the Luther traditional school of thought will specifically reject ideas and practices that Roman Catholics continue to consider revealed truths. There are many other rich theological traditions in the Christian church. One can stand within these theological traditions and engage in theological reflection merely about one's own personal experience, if that is all one wants to do, but one can also reflect on the larger experience of whole communities and denominations over centuries and continue to give life to a tradition that will continue to thrive and evolve for centures to come.
              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                I wonder if you even realize that you are precisely demonstrating the truth of my remark to Spartacus that you will not discuss the subtleties of theological reflection. Too funny!
                Not funny at all. I am doing no such thing. You are making up your own private definitions.

                [quote] Your description of the definition of each word is fine. It is indeed what I mean. Yet you say that it only applies to one's personal life, and while that can indeed be very true, [quote]

                ok, but not the following
                it need not only be about one's personal life. Recall that I was speaking of theological schools of thought and theological traditions. For example, the Franciscan school of thought is not merely a single individual thiking or reflecting theologically about his own personal life. It is a whole school of thought. It is shared by a rather large group of scholars and communities over several centuries. Some ideas developed in the Franciscan school of thought eventually contribute to the defintion of dogmas in the Roman Catholic Church several centuries later. In the defintion of the Immaculate Conception, for example, the theological tradition that found expression in the Franciscan school of thought, especially as eventually expressed by John Duns Scotus, was later adopted by the Roman Catholic Church. Members of the Franciscan school of theology do not consider the writings of Bonneventure, William of Occam, Scotus, Roger Bacon, and others to be divinely inspired scriptures, much less do the opposing members of the Dominican school, but all recognize that the church eventally came to accept the tradition of theological reflection in one school as doctrine.

                The Lutheran theological tradition in the Western church or other reform traditions, Protestant and othewise, are likewise not based on new revealed scriptures, but on the theological views and traditions developed first by its founders and later elaborated upon by others. Karl Barth did not view the theological writings of Martin Luther as inspired scripture, but rather as valid theological reflection that did not merely relate to the inidividual personal experience of Martin Luther but the beginnings of a fruitful tradition that he too would contribute to in his own time. It has become a rich and successful school of thought. Lutheran theology does not believe in a separate text or act of special revelation, but it most certainly does have its own character and the Luther traditional school of thought will specifically reject ideas and practices that Roman Catholics continue to consider revealed truths. There are many other rich theological traditions in the Christian church. One can stand within these theological traditions and engage in theological reflection merely about one's own personal experience, if that is all one wants to do, but one can also reflect on the larger experience of whole communities and denominations over centuries and continue to give life to a tradition that will continue to thrive and evolve for centures to come.
                This is quite involved, but most definitely not anything to do with 'Theological Reflection,' nor the discussion concerning UU. Your going somewhere else with this maybe another thread.
                Last edited by shunyadragon; 10-29-2014, 10:20 PM.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  Not funny at all. I am doing no such thing.
                  Once again, if you want to prove me wrong, all you have to do is merely speak intelligently about these issues. So far you just try to criticize what I've said by misrepresentation and refusing to present any alternative view or alternative terminology of the examples I have given you.

                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  You are making up your own private definitions.
                  Nonsense. I am perfectly happy with the dictionary defintions and common usage of the words I have used and which you have finally mentioned yourself.

                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  ok, but not the following
                  What do you mean, 'not the following'?

                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  This is quite involved, but most definitely not anything to do with 'Theological Reflection,' nor the discussion concerning UU. Your going somewhere else with this maybe another thread.
                  It is much less involved than the actual riches of a multitude of theological schools of thought and theological traditions within the Christian religion and pretty much all other religions, near as I can tell. It is only your loss if you cannot bring yourself to engage in thoughtful reflection upon these realities.
                  βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                  ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                  אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                    Once again, if you want to prove me wrong, all you have to do is merely speak intelligently about these issues. So far you just try to criticize what I've said by misrepresentation and refusing to present any alternative view or alternative terminology of the examples I have given you.
                    Already done that in spades.


                    What do you mean, 'not the following'?
                    I was very specific what the following was in your previous post. There is no need to repeat.

                    Let's get back to the subject at hand UU.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      Already done that in spades.


                      I was very specific what the following was in your previous post. There is no need to repeat.

                      Let's get back to the subject at hand UU.
                      You are, of course, always free to address these questions in the Revelation thread. But you have not done so there either.
                      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                        Because Trinitarianism is the product of a literalist interpretation of Scripture and not extended and sophisticated philosophical and theological discourse within the Church, and everyone who has ever supported Trinitarianism is violent. Riiiiiiiight.
                        No, but why would they want join a humanist oriented church?
                        Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-24-2014, 10:10 AM.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          I would like to get back to the issue at hand, which is, 'What are the advantages of UU? Unfortunately the early part of the thread was dominated by 'flippy' meaningless remarks and insults and later went way off topic.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Source:



                            Unitarian Universalists hold the Principles as strong values and moral teachings. As Rev. Barbara Wells ten Hove explains, “The Principles are not dogma or doctrine, but rather a guide for those of us who choose to join and participate in Unitarian Universalist religious communities.”
                            1st Principle: The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
                            2nd Principle: Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
                            3rd Principle: Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
                            4th Principle: A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
                            5th Principle: The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
                            6th Principle: The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
                            7th Principle: Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

                            Sources of Our Living Tradition

                            Rev. Kathleen Rolenz said, “Throughout history, we have moved to the rhythms of mystery and wonder, prophecy, wisdom, teachings from ancient and modern sources, and nature herself.” Worshipping in our congregations you may hear a reading or perspective shared from any one of these sources from which our living tradition is drawn:
                            •Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life;
                            •Words and deeds of prophetic women and men which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion, and the transforming power of love;
                            •Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life;
                            •Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves;
                            •Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit;
                            •Spiritual teachings of earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature.

                            © Copyright Original Source

                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              The ones i have visited are a spiritual haven for the homosexual community of whom many feel uncomfortable in christianity.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Everyone is welcome? they're friendly.
                                A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
                                George Bernard Shaw

                                Comment

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