Announcement

Collapse

Comparative Religions 101 Guidelines

Welcome to Comp Religions, this is where the sights and sounds of the many world religions come together in a big World's Fair type atmosphere, without those delicious funnel cakes.

World Religions is a theist only type place, but that does not exclude certain religionists who practice non-theistic faiths ala Buddhism. If you are not sure, ask a moderator.

This is not a place where we argue the existence / non-existence of God.

And as usual, the forum rules apply.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

The admissions of Braver and more honest Muslims about the Koran

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The admissions of Braver and more honest Muslims about the Koran

    Intelligent and intellectual MUSLIMS like for example Ali Dashti was able to conclude this about the inconsistencies and flaws of the Koran:
    "The Qor'an contains sentences which are incomplete and not fully intelligible without the aid of commentaries; foreign words, unfamiliar Arabic words, and words used with other than the normal meaning; adjectives and verbs inflected without observance of the concords of gender and number; illogically and ungrammatically applied pronouns which sometimes have no referent; and predicates which in rhymed passages are often remote from the subjects.

    "These and other SUCH ABERRATIONS in the language have given scope to critics who deny the Qor'an's eloquence. THE PROBLEM ALSO OCCUPIED THE MINDS OF DEVOUT MOSLEMS. It forced the commentators to search for explanations and was probably one of the causes of disagreement over readings." (pp. 48-49)

    The views on the Qor'an held by Ebrahim on-Nazzam have been already mentioned, and it must be added that THEY WERE NOT HIS ALONE, but were also held by other scholars of the Mo'tazelite school such as Hesham b. 'Amr pl-Fuwati (d. ca. 218/833) and 'Abbad b. Solayman (d. ca. 250/864). ALL WERE DEVOUT BELIEVERS.

    The great and penetrating Arab thinker Abu'l-'Ala ol-Ma'arri considered some of his own writings ON A PAR WITH THE ELOQUENCE OF THE QOR'AN. (p. 50)

    "To sum up, more than ONE HUNDRED Qor'anic aberrations from the normal rules and structure of Arabic have been noted. Needless to say, THE COMMENTATORS STROVE TO FIND EXPLANATIONS AND JUSTIFICATIONS FOR THESE IRREGULARITIES. Among them was the great commentator and philologist MAHMUD OZ-ZAMAKHSHARI (467/1075-538/1144)


    Ali Dashti, 23 Years: A study of the Prophetic Career of Muhammad, Mazda Publishers,U.S.; 1994

    Dashti's admissions were published over 25 years ago. Today, more honest, bolder and intellectual confident Muslims are saying even more revelatory exposes about the "holes in islam's Koran"!

  • #2
    Here are some more recent admissions and honest discussions about the major problems of the Koran's preservation (that it is far from perfect or even early in its historical development).

    Al-Fadi [a fluent-speaking Arab], Yasir Qadhi and Mohd Hijab [south asians]- ALL three of them muslims, except the first one Al Fadi, who WAS a muslim, before leaving and abandoning Islam to become a born-again Christian according to the words and teaching of Jesus Christ in the Gospel of John Chapter 3 in the Holy Bible.

    In this fascinating, eye-opening interview with Dr.Jay Smith and David Wood (all with PhDs), they unpack for muslims like Siam and his friends, why Dr.Yasir Qadhi confessed that the "standard narrative (for the Koran) has HOLES IN IT"!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_i3jzvgBhY

    It is worthwhile to remember that these scholars and academicians making this admission of the less than perfect preservation of the Koran comes from eastern scholars of Islam and who are all Muslims - like Dr. Yasir Qadhi.

    The ground is removed from muslim propogandists like Siam who had claimed that it was just the western Koranic scholarship who are making these claims. We now see muslim learned people and scholars who are NOT FROM the western world, but from the eastern hemisphere who confirm the dubious and unreliable nature of the Koran today!



    Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
    Intelligent and intellectual MUSLIMS like for example Ali Dashti was able to conclude this about the inconsistencies and flaws of the Koran:
    "The Qor'an contains sentences which are incomplete and not fully intelligible without the aid of commentaries; foreign words, unfamiliar Arabic words, and words used with other than the normal meaning; adjectives and verbs inflected without observance of the concords of gender and number; illogically and ungrammatically applied pronouns which sometimes have no referent; and predicates which in rhymed passages are often remote from the subjects.

    "These and other SUCH ABERRATIONS in the language have given scope to critics who deny the Qor'an's eloquence. THE PROBLEM ALSO OCCUPIED THE MINDS OF DEVOUT MOSLEMS. It forced the commentators to search for explanations and was probably one of the causes of disagreement over readings." (pp. 48-49)

    The views on the Qor'an held by Ebrahim on-Nazzam have been already mentioned, and it must be added that THEY WERE NOT HIS ALONE, but were also held by other scholars of the Mo'tazelite school such as Hesham b. 'Amr pl-Fuwati (d. ca. 218/833) and 'Abbad b. Solayman (d. ca. 250/864). ALL WERE DEVOUT BELIEVERS.

    The great and penetrating Arab thinker Abu'l-'Ala ol-Ma'arri considered some of his own writings ON A PAR WITH THE ELOQUENCE OF THE QOR'AN. (p. 50)

    "To sum up, more than ONE HUNDRED Qor'anic aberrations from the normal rules and structure of Arabic have been noted. Needless to say, THE COMMENTATORS STROVE TO FIND EXPLANATIONS AND JUSTIFICATIONS FOR THESE IRREGULARITIES. Among them was the great commentator and philologist MAHMUD OZ-ZAMAKHSHARI (467/1075-538/1144)


    Ali Dashti, 23 Years: A study of the Prophetic Career of Muhammad, Mazda Publishers,U.S.; 1994

    Dashti's admissions were published over 25 years ago. Today, more honest, bolder and intellectual confident Muslims are saying even more revelatory exposes about the "holes in islam's Koran"!

    Comment


    • #3
      Now another well-known orthodox Muslim shares his honest feedback about the Koran and it's contents & language. Both muslims and non-muslims, take note!

      Ibn Khaldun comments on the incompetence of the Arabic scribes:

      "Arabic writing at the beginning of Islam was, therefore, not of the best quality nor of the greatest accuracy and excellence. It was not (even) of medium quality, because the Arabs possessed the savage desert attitude and were not familiar with crafts.

      "One may compare what happened to the orthography of the Qur'an on account of this situation. The men around Muhammad wrote the Qur'an in their own script which was not of a firmly established, good quality. Most of the letters were in contradiction to the orthography required by persons versed in the craft of writing…

      "Consequently, the Qur'anic orthography of the men around Muhammad was followed and became established, and the scholars acquainted with it have called attention to passages where (this is noticeable).

      "No attention should be paid in this connection with those incompetent (scholars) that the men around Muhammad knew well the art of writing and that the alleged discrepancies between their writing and the principles of orthography are not discrepancies, as has been alleged, but have a reason. For instance, they explain the addition of the alif in la 'adhbahannahU 'I shall indeed slaughter him' as indication that the slaughtering did not take place (lA 'adhbahannahU).

      The addition of the ya in bi-ayydin 'with hands (power),' they explain as an indication that the divine power is perfect. There are similar things based on nothing but purely arbitrary assumptions. The only reason that caused them to (assume such things) is their belief that (their explanations) would free the men around Muhammad from the suspicion of deficiency, in the sense that they were not able to write well.They think that good writing is perfection. Thus, they do not admit the fact that the men around Muhammad were deficient in writing."

      (Muqqadimah, Ibn Khaldun, vol. 2, p.382)

      Comment


      • #4
        Now, scholars and Muslims in Saudi Arabia are calling for correcting and rectifying the many errors in the Koran. Up to as many as 2,500 of them!

        That's about one-third of the total verses of that book!

        Owning up now to koranic errors is better admitted late than never, rather than admitting to nothing at all and pretending that the Koran today is "a perfectly preserved copy of the divine tablet located near or on the so-called "mother of the book ('ummul kitab' - QS 13/39).

        https://www.memri.org/reports/articl...ic-texts-light

        And Dr.Jay Smith unpacks this islamic conundrum clearly for everyone to understand, here:-

        https://youtu.be/hUVH8nUcUOI




        Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
        Now another well-known orthodox Muslim shares his honest feedback about the Koran and it's contents & language. Both muslims and non-muslims, take note!

        Ibn Khaldun comments on the incompetence of the Arabic scribes:

        "Arabic writing at the beginning of Islam was, therefore, not of the best quality nor of the greatest accuracy and excellence. It was not (even) of medium quality, because the Arabs possessed the savage desert attitude and were not familiar with crafts.

        "One may compare what happened to the orthography of the Qur'an on account of this situation. The men around Muhammad wrote the Qur'an in their own script which was not of a firmly established, good quality. Most of the letters were in contradiction to the orthography required by persons versed in the craft of writing…

        "Consequently, the Qur'anic orthography of the men around Muhammad was followed and became established, and the scholars acquainted with it have called attention to passages where (this is noticeable).

        "No attention should be paid in this connection with those incompetent (scholars) that the men around Muhammad knew well the art of writing and that the alleged discrepancies between their writing and the principles of orthography are not discrepancies, as has been alleged, but have a reason. For instance, they explain the addition of the alif in la 'adhbahannahU 'I shall indeed slaughter him' as indication that the slaughtering did not take place (lA 'adhbahannahU).

        The addition of the ya in bi-ayydin 'with hands (power),' they explain as an indication that the divine power is perfect. There are similar things based on nothing but purely arbitrary assumptions. The only reason that caused them to (assume such things) is their belief that (their explanations) would free the men around Muhammad from the suspicion of deficiency, in the sense that they were not able to write well.They think that good writing is perfection. Thus, they do not admit the fact that the men around Muhammad were deficient in writing."

        (Muqqadimah, Ibn Khaldun, vol. 2, p.382)

        Comment


        • #5
          And here, this Jordanian Islamic scholar and well-known "sheikh" from the Arab world - sheikh Abu Abdul Rahman al-Zahiri, writer, thinker and researcher, teacher and student of the Koran - has lost his faith in the "original and authentic sources of Islam". That obviously includes the Koranic sources, sunnah and traditional sources for orthodox Islam today:-

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jKd8z8thF8

          For muslims and propogandists of islam - get real and honest with yourselves, friends!

          If Arab speaking Muslims and scholars themselves now cannot accept the early sources of islam as authentic, how can you expect us - the non-Muslims, to ever do the same?

          Thinking Muslims and islamic scholars are rapidly leaving behind their traditional concepts and notions of Islam today - by the thousands.

          Look at Iran, Indonesia and now, the Arab Muslims themselves. scholars mind you, NOT mere lay people.


          Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
          Now, scholars and Muslims in Saudi Arabia are calling for correcting and rectifying the many errors in the Koran. Up to as many as 2,500 of them!

          That's about one-third of the total verses of that book!

          Owning up now to koranic errors is better admitted late than never, rather than admitting to nothing at all and pretending that the Koran today is "a perfectly preserved copy of the divine tablet located near or on the so-called "mother of the book ('ummul kitab' - QS 13/39).

          https://www.memri.org/reports/articl...ic-texts-light

          And Dr.Jay Smith unpacks this islamic conundrum clearly for everyone to understand, here:-

          https://youtu.be/hUVH8nUcUOI

          Comment


          • #6

            Now, if only the dawagandists and muslims here would listen impartially to muslim scholars, researchers and thinkers like Abu Abdul Rahman al-Zahiri, Al-Fadi, Bro.Rachid from Morocco, Ali Dashti, ibn Khaldun, Yasir Qadhi etc.

            Folk like siam would realise that it doesn't require western or Christian scholarship to expose the "holes in the standard narrative of the Koran" - to borrow Qadhi's own admission.

            There have been and continue to be to this day, many Muslim thinkers and intellectuals, students of knowledge who have abandoned their faith and beliefs in islam, the Koran etc resulting from objective and open critical study of Islam. Like Nabeel Qureshi, Rachid, Lamin Sanneh, Sam Solomon, Daud Rahbar and many others who left Islam to embrace Christianity and the authentic teachings of Christ! And their tribe is increasing. Hallelujah!



            Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
            And here, this Jordanian Islamic scholar and well-known "sheikh" from the Arab world - sheikh Abu Abdul Rahman al-Zahiri, writer, thinker and researcher, teacher and student of the Koran - has lost his faith in the "original and authentic sources of Islam". That obviously includes the Koranic sources, sunnah and traditional sources for orthodox Islam today:-

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jKd8z8thF8

            For muslims and propogandists of islam - get real and honest with yourselves, friends!

            If Arab speaking Muslims and scholars themselves now cannot accept the early sources of islam as authentic, how can you expect us - the non-Muslims, to ever do the same?

            Thinking Muslims and islamic scholars are rapidly leaving behind their traditional concepts and notions of Islam today - by the thousands.

            Look at Iran, Indonesia and now, the Arab Muslims themselves. scholars mind you, NOT mere lay people.

            Comment

            Related Threads

            Collapse

            Topics Statistics Last Post
            Started by Dan Zebiri, 08-14-2020, 09:03 AM
            5 responses
            474 views
            0 likes
            Last Post Dan Zebiri  
            Working...
            X