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Can One Man Die for the sins of Others?

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  • #31
    And your ideas & misrepresentations of the Gospel and Christian doctrines are supposed to be persuasive, them siam?

    BTW, Carrier's ideas will also demolish and wipe out islam and the Koran's validity if you want to cite his works.

    And Btw, Erhman & his ideas about the early NT manuscripts have been challenged and debunked by Christian scholars like Tom Wright and Michael Bird.

    https://www.abc.net.au/religion/how-...again/10099302

    Also if u use Erhman, then prepare to see the koran & sunnah / hadith demolished by his kind of scholarship as well.





    Originally posted by siam View Post
    ...likewise...Dr Wood/Brown is a Christian...he does not believe in Islam so his opinions on what the Quran says is not particularly persuasive to me, a Muslim, who knows the Quran....




    Perhaps you are right...that video was so tedious, I didn't even finish it!
    What is your opinion of Bart Ehrman? I find his presentations interesting.......

    Comment


    • #32
      Correct, Christian. Mary is the Mother of the Christ, the Messiah Jesus/

      GOD has no mother.

      But the Koran has got a mother - the ummul kitab or "mother of the Book" mentioned in sura 13/39 - "And with Allah/God is the ummul kitab (mother of the book)"

      If according to this verse, the Koran has a mother, then WHO is the father of it? WHY use the term "mother" then?

      Koran uses physical and biological terms for its origins and sources. This mother of the Book is eternal and uncreated, as God/Allah himself?

      That is what orthodox islamic doctrines and tenets actually teach.









      Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
      Mary is the mother of the Messiah, Jesus.

      Yes, I have read them in context.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally Posted by Trucker View Post
        According to the very Scriptures Muhammad told the Christians of his day to follow .... absolutely. So did Muhammad know what he was talking about or not???? And those are the very same Scriptures we read and quote you from today!! But then Muhammad denies the very Scriptures he validates. Seems Muhammad was one confused self proclaimed prophet!!!

        Certainly NOT a Christian that reads the Scriptures!!

        Hmmmm ... here I could have sworn that it was the Romans who crucified Jesus!! Although the Romans did it at the insistence of the Jews. Fact is, sir, Messiah was crucified because of ALL OF US!!
        Originally posted by siam View Post
        I do read what you post---but the English is a bit unclear....perhaps if you could rephrase or maybe use a bit more formal English? I might be able to respond?

        I'm not a formal English person. I only speak hillilly. If you can't understand my plain talk I don't know why you think you would understand formal Eglish.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by siam View Post
          ...likewise...Dr Wood/Brown is a Christian...he does not believe in Islam so his opinions on what the Quran says is not particularly persuasive to me, a Muslim, who knows the Quran....




          Perhaps you are right...that video was so tedious, I didn't even finish it!
          What is your opinion of Bart Ehrman? I find his presentations interesting.......

          Siam there are many people who "really know the Qur'an" who reject it. Mr. Wood was a very good friend of an ex-Muslim. Dr. Brown is a messianic Jew.

          I feel sorry for Bart Ehrman. We have exchanged a few emails. I have read most of his books.
          Last edited by Christian3; 05-04-2020, 06:18 AM.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by siam View Post
            Can one man die for the sins of others?
            ...even a Christian would have to answer NO to that question....
            remember "Deicide"---the Christian accusation of "killing God" laid at the door of the Jews? ....God (not man) has to "die" in order to atone for the sins of humanity......?......
            Jesus was God. He was both God and man. He wasn't a mixture of both, but fully God and fully man.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by siam View Post
              According to Christianity, is Mary mother of God (Theotokos) sinful or sinless?

              Quran Quotes...have you read them in context or just copy/paste it?
              Only Jesus was without sin.

              ETA: More correctly, the Bible says that ALL have sinned (Romans 3:23), and Mary is never "excepted" from that. Jesus is the only One identified as "having no sin".
              Last edited by Cow Poke; 05-04-2020, 08:20 AM.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #37
                Since Jesus is God the Son and the almighty Judge, he can pay for the sins and not judge us for them. He is the judge who stepped from his throne and paid our penalty so that we would not have to. The penalty was still paid, so justice is served, but we don't have to serve the sentence.

                John 5:22
                Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son

                24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

                Comment


                • #38
                  That is true, Cowpoke, and as the prefect sinless MAN (not as God), Jesus Christ represents humanity before God's judgement throne.

                  God cannot die, but a man can. Jesus was both God and Man, who did not become a hybrid mixture.

                  Sunni muslims know this because their theology teaches similar things about the divine nature of the Koran.

                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  Jesus was God. He was both God and man. He wasn't a mixture of both, but fully God and fully man.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Dr. Wood's good friend was Dr.Nabeel Qureishy, who comes from a muslim missionary family known as the "Ahmadis". They know the koran quite well and memorised many ayats/verses to push on to the non muslims.

                    Nabeel had many hours of intense discussions with David Wood about comparative religion, polemics and apologetics, so obviously Wood knows what he is talking about.



                    Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                    Siam there are many people who "really know the Qur'an" who reject it. Mr. Wood was a very good friend of an ex-Muslim. Dr. Brown is a messianic Jew.

                    I feel sorry for Bart Ehrman. We have have exchanged a few emails. I have read most of his books.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                      Dr. Wood's good friend was Dr.Nabeel Qureishy, who comes from a muslim missionary family known as the "Ahmadis". They know the koran quite well and memorised many ayats/verses to push on to the non muslims.

                      Nabeel had many hours of intense discussions with David Wood about comparative religion, polemics and apologetics, so obviously Wood knows what he is talking about.
                      I have all of Nabeel Qureshi's books. "Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus" was a sad book in my opinion. To Nabeel's credit he did his own research.

                      We had two Ahmadis visit on another site and they stayed for two years. You are correct -- they know the Qur'an well. They tried to convince us that Jesus was crucified but survived and died at the age of 120.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Sad and enlightening and happy in the end. Islam makes enemies within families of muslim "apostates", many "apostates" are thrown out of their Muslim homes & families & have to be on the run.

                        But the happy truth is Nabeel loved the truth he painstakingly discovered in the GOSPEL of Christ more than islam. In spite of all the rejection, persecution and real threats to life and limb these brethren who have quit islam are the real deal. They value the real truth above all else.



                        Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                        I have all of Nabeel Qureshi's books. "Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus" was a sad book in my opinion. To Nabeel's credit he did his own research.

                        We had two Ahmadis visit on another site and they stayed for two years. You are correct -- they know the Qur'an well. They tried to convince us that Jesus was crucified but survived and died at the age of 120.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                          Sad and enlightening and happy in the end. Islam makes enemies within families of muslim "apostates", many "apostates" are thrown out of their Muslim homes & families & have to be on the run.

                          But the happy truth is Nabeel loved the truth he painstakingly discovered in the GOSPEL of Christ more than islam. In spite of all the rejection, persecution and real threats to life and limb these brethren who have quit islam are the real deal. They value the real truth above all else.
                          I remember Nabeel saying that two of Muslim friends told him that if they lived in a Muslim country, they would kill him for leaving Islam and Nabeel said, "Then thank God we live in America.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Can one man die for the sins of others
                            Here are 2 versions of the Nicene creed for refrence:-
                            1) 325 CE
                            We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.
                            And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God,] Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
                            By whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth];
                            Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man;
                            He suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven;
                            From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
                            And in the Holy Ghost.

                            2)381 CE
                            We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
                            And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
                            by whom all things were made;
                            who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary, and was made man;
                            he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
                            from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead. ;
                            whose kingdom shall have no end.
                            And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets.
                            In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

                            Christianity is beyond my comprehension...yet....it seems to me, the general idea is that God has to "change" into man and "die"....?.... which effectively means God has to "die".
                            If any sinless man can "die"---then God only needed to create a new man---one not from the Adamic line who did not inherit original sin and then proceed with the murder/sacrifice. After all, God created Adam without any parents.
                            But that is not what Christianity says in its creed---It is God that has to incarnate and then die.

                            Mary is sinful or sinless.
                            According to the Roman Catholic Church and its doctrine of immaculate conception
                            The Immaculate Conception is a dogma of the Roman Catholic Church which states that the Virgin Mary was free of original sin from the moment of her conception.[1][Notes 1] It proved highly controversial in the Middle Ages, but revived in the 19th century and was adopted as church dogma when Pope Pius IX promulgated Ineffabilis Deus in 1854
                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception

                            Protestants reject this dogma...
                            But.....
                            That poses the problem---how can God be born of a sinful woman?
                            ----Mary, Mother of God.
                            Protestant views on Mary vary from denomination to denomination. They focus generally on interpretations of Mary in the Bible, the "Apostles' Creed", (which professes the Virgin Birth), and the Ecumenical Council of Ephesus, in 431, which called Mary the Mother of God. While some early Protestants created Marian art and allowed limited forms of Marian veneration,[16] most Protestants today do not share the veneration of Mary practiced by Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox.
                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariology

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              U say, Dr Carrier's ideas have been challenged....

                              It is good to research and verify claims made by scholars.

                              This also includes claims made by this Dr Wood fellow too...
                              He "claims" things about the Quran---so all one has to do is go read the verses surrounding the quoted verse to verify.

                              has anyone here bothered? ....or because its something you want to believe...you accept it blindly?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                In ALL factuality the very same thing is also 100% true of you, siam.

                                You your pathetic self read all the Biblical verses you cite to us with terribly JAUNDICED EYES and baseless, unfounded prejudice.

                                Sometimes u claim that u don't know / don't understand / refuse to understand, the historic teachings of the real Jesus Christ, but still go ahead and do treacherous VIOLENCE against the Bible, anyway!

                                Worst still, you refuse to accept what is found in the original sources of islam that expose it's errors, fallacies and glaring contradictions, as are verifiable by orthodox islamic sources & authorities themselves - NOT what u try to dismiss as Our MISREPRESENTIONS of them.

                                Shameful hypocrisy, nothing less, siam - and hakeem too, I might ADD.


                                Originally posted by siam View Post
                                U say, Dr Carrier's ideas have been challenged....

                                It is good to research and verify claims made by scholars.

                                This also includes claims made by this Dr Wood fellow too...
                                He "claims" things about the Quran---so all one has to do is go read the verses surrounding the quoted verse to verify.

                                has anyone here bothered? ....or because its something you want to believe...you accept it blindly?

                                Comment

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