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Did Jesus preach or proclaim the doctrine of the Trinity?

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  • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
    The Word, who was with God in the beginning, didn't become Jesus until the incarnation.
    In Revelation 3:21, Jesus said "I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne", so Jesus CANNOT BE GOD; Jesus cannot be with God the Father as per Revelation 3:21 and be God as it requires more than one God.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
      In Revelation 3:21, Jesus said "I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne", so Jesus CANNOT BE GOD; Jesus cannot be with God the Father as per Revelation 3:21 and be God as it requires more than one God.
      Jesus MUST be God according to Revelations 3:21, because only God is worthy to sit on the Father's throne. Either Jesus is God, or He is a liar. And Revelations doesn't require more than one God, because the Trinity solves that problem.

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      • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
        Jesus MUST be God according to Revelations 3:21, because only God is worthy to sit on the Father's throne. Either Jesus is God, or He is a liar. And Revelations doesn't require more than one God, because the Trinity solves that problem.
        What make one God in nature is fulfilling the qualities of God. For example, God is one in Deut 6:4. As a matter of fact, Jesus siting DOWN with God the Father in Rev 3:21 proves Jesus cannot be God AND be siting DOWN with God the Father; otherwise; this requires more than one God.

        Trinity is denied by Jesus himself when Jesus showed that the knowledge of his second coming is LIMITED to "ONLY THE FATHER" in Matthew 24:36 and therefore excluding the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the Holy Spirit CANNOT BE GOD because God knows everything in 1 John 3:20.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
          What make one God in nature is fulfilling the qualities of God. For example, God is one in Deut 6:4. As a matter of fact, Jesus siting DOWN with God the Father in Rev 3:21 proves Jesus cannot be God AND be siting DOWN with God the Father; otherwise; this requires more than one God.

          Trinity is denied by Jesus himself when Jesus showed that the knowledge of his second coming is LIMITED to "ONLY THE FATHER" in Matthew 24:36 and therefore excluding the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the Holy Spirit CANNOT BE GOD because God knows everything in 1 John 3:20.
          You do not know what you are talking abput. First, a person does not mean a God. The only thing you got correct is God is One, Deuteronomy 6:4. And it is the very thing Jesus taught about God, Mark 12:29.

          Trinity is the name of the explanation that the presons, God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit are the One God. One God.

          What one does not understand to be true, one cannot possibly believe.

          I am not persuaded that you even want to hear it, let alone really comprehend why it has to be true. And that the Trinity cannot not be true.

          First, God is uncaused. God is infinite. God to us is invisible. And God is omnipresent.

          [All causes are finite, local and temporal.]
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            You do not know what you are talking abput. First, a person does not mean a God. The only thing you got correct is God is One, Deuteronomy 6:4. And it is the very thing Jesus taught about God, Mark 12:29.

            Trinity is the name of the explanation that the presons, God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit are the One God. One God.

            What one does not understand to be true, one cannot possibly believe.

            I am not persuaded that you even want to hear it, let alone really comprehend why it has to be true. And that the Trinity cannot not be true.

            First, God is uncaused. God is infinite. God to us is invisible. And God is omnipresent.

            [All causes are finite, local and temporal.]
            God is one and only. This one and only TRUE God is the Father according to Jesus in John 17:1-3 where Jesus addressed the Father as "THE ONLY TRUE GOD." ONLY means ONLY. No exception is allowed here.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
              What make one God in nature is fulfilling the qualities of God. For example, God is one in Deut 6:4. As a matter of fact, Jesus siting DOWN with God the Father in Rev 3:21 proves Jesus cannot be God AND be siting DOWN with God the Father; otherwise; this requires more than one God.
              No, it doesn't. The Trinity allows for three persons to be God without there being three Gods. Therefore Jesus sitting down with God the Father does not require more than one God.

              Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
              Trinity is denied by Jesus himself when Jesus showed that the knowledge of his second coming is LIMITED to "ONLY THE FATHER" in Matthew 24:36 and therefore excluding the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the Holy Spirit CANNOT BE GOD because God knows everything in 1 John 3:20.
              Jesus is alluding to ancient Jewish marriage customs in Matthew 24:36 when he says that only the father knows the time of His return. In the time of Jesus it was customary before the consummation of the wedding for the bridegroom to go to his father's house and prepare a bridal chamber for her (which Jesus alludes to when he says in John 14:2-3 that His Father's house has many rooms, and that He goes to prepare a place for us.) The bridegroom's father was the judge of when the work was finished and the bridegroom could go and fetch his bride and bring her to the bridal chamber. But before this, if anyone asked the bridegroom when the bridal chamber was ready, it was customary for the bridegroom to answer with something similar to "only my father knows that", even if other people were also aware of when the bridal chamber would be ready.

              In short, Matthew 24:36 is Jesus alluding to this marriage custom and cannot be taken to necessarily imply that absolutely no one but the Father knows the time and hour of Jesus' return, as the bridegroom would have inevitably answered that only his father knows, regardless of whether someone else might actually have had that knowledge.

              For more information about this you can watch the following video (with sources to his claims in the video description)

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                <snip>

                The video is good. But there are other explanations.

                Jesus explains (re: Mark 12:32), in Acts 1:6-7, ". . . they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. . . ." And this has to do with Him being the Son of God more than His incarantion. It was the Son of God who as the Father's temporal agent who in some things has limited His omniscience. God is fully omniscient. And the Son is fully omniscient of all things in creation (Hebrews 1:3) being the Creator, John 1:3. He appears on behalf of the invisible, John 1:18 KJV. So when He appeared to Abraham in Genesis 22:12, says, ". . . now I know . . . ." This goes to the heart as to why God must be a Trinity. The difference between being infinite and finite, eternal and temporal. The Son as God is infinite and eternal, as the Son is finite, local and temporal on behalf of the Father. The Son, being the Word was always both "with God" John 1:1-2 and "was God," John 1:1-3. And the Son is how God made appearances, John 1:18, Genesis 12:7, Isaiah 6:5; John 12:41.
                Last edited by 37818; 04-05-2020, 01:14 PM.
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                  No, it doesn't. The Trinity allows for three persons to be God without there being three Gods. Therefore Jesus sitting down with God the Father does not require more than one God.



                  Jesus is alluding to ancient Jewish marriage customs in Matthew 24:36 when he says that only the father knows the time of His return. In the time of Jesus it was customary before the consummation of the wedding for the bridegroom to go to his father's house and prepare a bridal chamber for her (which Jesus alludes to when he says in John 14:2-3 that His Father's house has many rooms, and that He goes to prepare a place for us.) The bridegroom's father was the judge of when the work was finished and the bridegroom could go and fetch his bride and bring her to the bridal chamber. But before this, if anyone asked the bridegroom when the bridal chamber was ready, it was customary for the bridegroom to answer with something similar to "only my father knows that", even if other people were also aware of when the bridal chamber would be ready.

                  In short, Matthew 24:36 is Jesus alluding to this marriage custom and cannot be taken to necessarily imply that absolutely no one but the Father knows the time and hour of Jesus' return, as the bridegroom would have inevitably answered that only his father knows, regardless of whether someone else might actually have had that knowledge.

                  For more information about this you can watch the following video (with sources to his claims in the video description)

                  Let me correct you as follows;

                  1. Claiming "The Trinity allows for three persons to be God without there being three Gods" is not true because the trinity requires that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are co-equal. But according to Jesus, they are NOT co-equal because Jesus addressed the FATHER as "THE ONLY TRUE GOD" in John 17:1-3; therefore, the Son is true God and the Holy Spirit is not true God.

                  2. Still when Jesus said "no one knows of the day and that hour not even the angels in heaven but ONLY THE FATHER" in Mathew 24:36 means as Jesus said "ONLY THE FATHER" knows that hour excluding the HOLY SPIRIT.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                    Let me correct you as follows;

                    1. Claiming "The Trinity allows for three persons to be God without there being three Gods" is not true because the trinity requires that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are co-equal. But according to Jesus, they are NOT co-equal because Jesus addressed the FATHER as "THE ONLY TRUE GOD" in John 17:1-3; therefore, the Son is true God and the Holy Spirit is not true God.
                    John 17:1-3 does not prove that the Son and the Holy Spirit are not God, because John 17:3 is speaking of the Father as the only true God in opposition to all the false gods and idols of the world, and not in exclusion to the Son or the Holy Spirit. On the contrary, the context of John 17 clearly shows that Jesus thought himself to be equal with the Father, because he says:

                    Scripture Verse: John 17:1-5 ESV


                    When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    In other words, the Son existed with the Father before the universe was created, and shared in the Father's glory as the only true God. Jesus temporarily gave up this glory when he assumed human form and became perfectly obedient to the Father's will, but after dying on the cross and being resurrected He ascended to heaven and took his seat on His Father's throne as co-equal with the Father.

                    Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                    2. Still when Jesus said "no one knows of the day and that hour not even the angels in heaven but ONLY THE FATHER" in Mathew 24:36 means as Jesus said "ONLY THE FATHER" knows that hour excluding the HOLY SPIRIT.
                    If you're simply going to ignore what I wrote about ancient Jewish marriage customs and how it shows that Jesus saying that "only the Father knows" isn't necessarily a literal and absolute claim to exclusionary knowledge on the Father's side then I'm just going to assume that you are unable to come up with an objection to to my answer.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                      John 17:1-3 does not prove that the Son and the Holy Spirit are not God, because John 17:3 is speaking of the Father as the only true God in opposition to all the false gods and idols of the world, and not in exclusion to the Son or the Holy Spirit. On the contrary, the context of John 17 clearly shows that Jesus thought himself to be equal with the Father, because he says:

                      Scripture Verse: John 17:1-5 ESV


                      When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      In other words, the Son existed with the Father before the universe was created, and shared in the Father's glory as the only true God. Jesus temporarily gave up this glory when he assumed human form and became perfectly obedient to the Father's will, but after dying on the cross and being resurrected He ascended to heaven and took his seat on His Father's throne as co-equal with the Father.



                      If you're simply going to ignore what I wrote about ancient Jewish marriage customs and how it shows that Jesus saying that "only the Father knows" isn't necessarily a literal and absolute claim to exclusionary knowledge on the Father's side then I'm just going to assume that you are unable to come up with an objection to to my answer.
                      Saying " John 17:3 is speaking of the Father as the only true God in opposition to all the false gods and idols of the world, and not in exclusion to the Son or the Holy Spirit" is not supported by John 17.

                      Jesus preexisting does not make Jesus God because Malechzdik is "without father and without mother without beginning of days and without ending of life like the Son" in Hebrew 7:3.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                        Saying " John 17:3 is speaking of the Father as the only true God in opposition to all the false gods and idols of the world, and not in exclusion to the Son or the Holy Spirit" is not supported by John 17.

                        Jesus preexisting does not make Jesus God because Malechzdik is "without father and without mother without beginning of days and without ending of life like the Son" in Hebrew 7:3.
                        You know what a metaphor is?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          You know what a metaphor is?
                          Do you know that "ONLY" means "Only"?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                            Do you know that "ONLY" means "Only"?
                            Answer the question.
                            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                              The Word, who was with God in the beginning, didn't become Jesus until the incarnation.
                              The author of the Qur'an never heard of the incarnation; otherwise, he would never have said Jesus couldn't be God because He had to eat food.

                              Jesus is one person with two natures, one human and one divine; as a human of course Jesus had to eat food.

                              Comment


                              • Same Hakeem, your god thought the Trinity was Allah, Jesus and the Virgin Mary, which is a HUGE mistake in the Qur'an.

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