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  • Originally posted by RBerman View Post
    No; if you'll go back through this chain of replies, you'll see that we were discussing the sacraments. You said the sacraments were the ordinary means of grace for salvation. An end to be sure. But THE end?
    Well, okay. I should've said the sacraments are the "main" means by which you receive grace for salvation, with the exception of baptism, of course. Baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation.
    Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

    -Thomas Aquinas

    I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

    -Hernando Cortez

    What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

    -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

    Comment


    • Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
      Well, okay. I should've said the sacraments are the "main" means by which you receive grace for salvation, with the exception of baptism, of course. Baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation.
      Thank you for clarifying your position. I agree that God works through the sacraments to bring us grace. I agree that baptism is not an option for Christians to take or leave; normatively, one who is not baptized should not be regarded as a Christian.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
        Baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation.
        Can a person be a Christian who has not been water baptized yet?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
          Can a person be a Christian who has not been water baptized yet?
          No.
          Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

          -Thomas Aquinas

          I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

          -Hernando Cortez

          What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

          -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

          Comment


          • Then why was Cornelius and the others with him (Acts 10) saved before their water baptism in that they had already received the Holy Spirit before their water baptism?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
              Are you distrustful of people who ask you to pray for them?

              Such as?

              I think that's mostly a Protestant myth.

              Me neither, but as you say that is not a specifically Catholic problem, especially since Catholics, following Irenaeus, tend to emphasize the salvific role of the incarnation rather than focusing merely upon Jesus' death. Besides, Anselm's theory was more evocative of the feudal social order of his day than post Protestant rebelliousness.

              Good for you!

              I don't think there's any danger of this happening all of the sudden in the Catholic church so we can probably dismiss that concern. My only argument in favor of women's ordination is that I see no good reason against it. And, as you say, I've seen it work very, very well in ways that inspired me to be open minded about this.
              I should have replied to this much sooner. I am sorry.

              As for prayers to Mary and the saints, I believe RBerman covered it. It looks like something (and has been something) that would lead people to put religious devotion to the saints or Mary and to forget about devotion to God. In other words, giving latria to saints and Mary in the devotee's practice, even if they verbalize or think they are only giving dulia. Without perfect confidence that the practice is approved/demanded by God, I would be suspicious of it and not teach others to do it.

              As for the monasteries/convents, I may have mouthed sooner than I should have. I have concerns that some monasteries/convents that I've seen accept people too readily into the Holy Orders (or the wrong kind of people, or accept without grilling the person enough), people who really have no business being a monk/nun and would better serve God somewhere else in life. However, my knowledge of modern day monasteries and convents is limited to only a few examples, I don't know if its a widespread problem. I imagine it very well could be, but I really should have been more specific in my concern and not just mouthed off to monasteries in general.

              I'm not sure its just a Protestant myth. I could check with a trustworthy missionary I know to be certain, since he deals with a heavily Catholic population. He's Baptist and more biased against Catholicism than I am, but he's also trustworthy and (from all reports) has had to deal with a poor crowd.

              As for women's ordination, I think this is a case where tradition and lack of any female priests in the Scriptures (tradition, although tradition noted in Scripture) is enough of an argument to overcome how well they may do in said role, as well as any concerns about being "culturally relevant" and such.

              Really, my biggest thing against it is that, despite roles like prophet and judge being filled by females before, I know of not one example of a female priest in either the Old or New Testament Scriptures. And plenty of priests are mentioned throughout Scripture. I may not have a deductive, theoretical argument for why not, but I think this inductive, by-tradition argument is strong enough to forbid women's ordination. I'd change my position quite readily if any example in the Scriptures (or maybe within the early church) of a female priest could be found.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
                No.
                Again, that is not what the Catholic Church teaches. Have you forgotten about catechumens? Or are you now just espousing your own personal theology?

                1249 Catechumens "are already joined to the Church, they are already of the household of Christ, and are quite frequently already living a life of faith, hope, and charity."48 "With love and solicitude mother Church already embraces them as her own."49
                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Just Some Dude View Post
                  As for prayers to Mary and the saints, I believe RBerman covered it. It looks like something (and has been something) that would lead people to put religious devotion to the saints or Mary and to forget about devotion to God. In other words, giving latria to saints and Mary in the devotee's practice, even if they verbalize or think they are only giving dulia. Without perfect confidence that the practice is approved/demanded by God, I would be suspicious of it and not teach others to do it.
                  That is a very ambiguous line wouldn't you think?

                  Comment


                  • The last part? I'd probably actually be more stern in not teaching others that what I implied. This is a case where I wouldn't allow a middle ground.

                    Although if you're questioning something else, I have no idea what the question is.

                    Comment


                    • I would agree that some "Shi'ite" Catholics go waaaaaaaay overboard with their adoration of the saints (to the point that pictures and figurines of Jesus look like little Hobbits compared to the icons of Mary and the saints surrounding them), but the idea of asking people to pray for you is far from unorthodox. I remain squeamish, however, with just about everything related to Mariology and the uber-saccharine depictions of her and the saints and the horrid purple prose of some of the prayers offered to them (but I know there's no accounting for personal taste).

                      Comment


                      • But who knows, I've adopted some theology in recent years that I'd never imagine I'd hold. You just might find me in Mass one day in the future, but I doubt it

                        One major plus to Catholicism, Lutheranism, and Orthodox practices is it's high liturgical format to their worship services. The super casual atmosphere of my protestant denominational services are terrible (and don't get me started on the music).

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Just Some Dude View Post
                          I should have replied to this much sooner. I am sorry.
                          No problem.

                          Originally posted by Just Some Dude View Post
                          As for prayers to Mary and the saints, I believe RBerman covered it. It looks like something (and has been something) that would lead people to put religious devotion to the saints or Mary and to forget about devotion to God.
                          Absolutely not.

                          Originally posted by Just Some Dude View Post
                          In other words, giving latria to saints and Mary in the devotee's practice, even if they verbalize or think they are only giving dulia. Without perfect confidence that the practice is approved/demanded by God, I would be suspicious of it and not teach others to do it.
                          I understand your suspicion but I do not share it.

                          Originally posted by Just Some Dude View Post
                          As for the monasteries/convents, I may have mouthed sooner than I should have. I have concerns that some monasteries/convents that I've seen accept people too readily into the Holy Orders (or the wrong kind of people, or accept without grilling the person enough), people who really have no business being a monk/nun and would better serve God somewhere else in life. However, my knowledge of modern day monasteries and convents is limited to only a few examples, I don't know if its a widespread problem. I imagine it very well could be, but I really should have been more specific in my concern and not just mouthed off to monasteries in general.
                          Acceptance into monasteries or religious life is completely different from holy orders. The process of joining a religious order or monastery requires several years, typically at least 7 years, but mistakes can be made, eg, Martin Luther.

                          Originally posted by Just Some Dude View Post
                          I'm not sure its just a Protestant myth. I could check with a trustworthy missionary I know to be certain, since he deals with a heavily Catholic population. He's Baptist and more biased against Catholicism than I am, but he's also trustworthy and (from all reports) has had to deal with a poor crowd.
                          Exercise caution with a source that you know to be biased.

                          Originally posted by Just Some Dude View Post
                          As for women's ordination, I think this is a case where tradition and lack of any female priests in the Scriptures (tradition, although tradition noted in Scripture) is enough of an argument to overcome how well they may do in said role, as well as any concerns about being "culturally relevant" and such.

                          Really, my biggest thing against it is that, despite roles like prophet and judge being filled by females before, I know of not one example of a female priest in either the Old or New Testament Scriptures. And plenty of priests are mentioned throughout Scripture. I may not have a deductive, theoretical argument for why not, but I think this inductive, by-tradition argument is strong enough to forbid women's ordination. I'd change my position quite readily if any example in the Scriptures (or maybe within the early church) of a female priest could be found.
                          In the Catholic Church, Holy Orders is fully conferred with ordination to the diaconate (at which time one can administer some but not all sacraments and preach), after which time a deacon may be tasked with additional priestly duties, up to and including presiding over the public celebration of the Eucharist and episcopal service (bishop). We do know that there were deaconesses in the New Testament (Phoebe in Romans 16,1) and subsequently in the early church.
                          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
                            That's...kind of the point, actually, the fact that he wasn't mentioned among the other heretics that went "contrary to the orthodox faith". If he truly was heretical, he would've been mentioned along with them.
                            You (and CL) are ignoring the strong language used where Honorius was singled out for especial condemnation.
                            Yes. However, the defense was in response to Sergius' non-sequitur about Christ having one human will instead of two human wills. Said defense was not in response to the heresy in question. Were you even paying attention?
                            Look, either the letter was heretical (per Pope Agatho and the Council) or it wasn't (CL). You can't have it both ways. I'll go with the sources most intimately familiar with the question and the languages used over some modern blogger.
                            I don't see how a simple phrase like that undermines his argument. He did, certainly, in all respects, follow Sergius' view of silence on the Church's part. If it said "views", as in, multiple views, then I'd be in trouble.
                            Mere silence (which is inherently ambiguous) would hardly qualify as "in all respects" (which emphasizes the particular).
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • You're not the only Protestant who heavily favors a liturgical format. Don't forget the Anglicans either, as I believe some of them (like one that I'll be visiting tomorrow) still hold to a liturgical service.

                              Neither are you the only one with complaints about the music, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms, and a rather large can at that.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Manwë Súlimo View Post
                                I would agree that some "Shi'ite" Catholics go waaaaaaaay overboard with their adoration of the saints (to the point that pictures and figurines of Jesus look like little Hobbits compared to the icons of Mary and the saints surrounding them), but the idea of asking people to pray for you is far from unorthodox. I remain squeamish, however, with just about everything related to Mariology and the uber-saccharine depictions of her and the saints and the horrid purple prose of some of the prayers offered to them (but I know there's no accounting for personal taste).
                                The same can be said of some depictions of Jesus. But I agree about some devotional practices going too far, with Mary or the saints or exorcism or practically anything.
                                Last edited by robrecht; 04-05-2014, 09:04 PM.
                                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                                Comment

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