Catholic Problems

[TimelessTheist]

Jesus may have been contrasting Peter as the little rock, and the substance of Peter's confession of faith as the big rock.

I already addressed this. This theory is impossible because, as admitted by Greek scholars, the meanings of the words are synonymous.

[Paprika]

Quite easily:

He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:54)

He who believes and is baptized will be saved. (Mark 16:16)

Unless you repent you will all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3)

The Lukan quotation isn't relevant, but the other two are all right. Next question: can only Christians in the Catholic Church give the sacraments?

[TimelessTheist]

The Lukan quotation isn't relevant, but the other two are all right. Next question: can only Christians in the Catholic Church give the sacraments?

Yes, only an ordained minister of the Catholic Church can give the sacraments.

[Paprika]

Yes, only an ordained minister of the Catholic Church can give the sacraments.

Why? Don't many ministers from under many other denominations give the sacraments?

[TimelessTheist]

Why? Don't many ministers from under many other denominations give the sacraments?

While the Catholic Church has a doctrine that states that the personal holiness of the minister doesn't actually matter, what it 'is' pretty clear on is that the only way the sacraments will have any effect, is if they're preformed by a person ordained by the Catholic Church. Otherwise, it has about as much as much effect as a Mormon priest preforming last rights....that is, none.

[Paprika]

what it 'is' pretty clear on is that the only way the sacraments will have any effect, is if they're preformed by a person ordained by the Catholic Church.

Well, can this be shown from Scripture?

[robrecht]

Yes, only an ordained minister of the Catholic Church can give the sacraments.

While the Catholic Church has a doctrine that states that the personal holiness of the minister doesn't actually matter, what it 'is' pretty clear on is that the only way the sacraments will have any effect, is if they're preformed by a person ordained by the Catholic Church. Otherwise, it has about as much as much effect as a Mormon priest preforming last rights....that is, none.

This is not what the Catholic Church teaches (CCC 818 819 838):

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers .... All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

838: "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM#-12O

[TimelessTheist]

This is not what the Catholic Church teaches (CCC 818 819 838):

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers .... All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

838: "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM#-12O

Oh....right. Forgot about that part. Yeah, Baptism is the exception, there, anyone can do that.

[RBerman]

I already addressed this. This theory is impossible because, as admitted by Greek scholars, the meanings of the words are synonymous.

Synonyms do not have identical meanings (i.e. Both denotation and connotation) ever, even though the two terms may some times be very close. Vine's Expository Dictionary does see a distinction between the two words. Thayer's lexicon reports the controversy without taking a stand. At any rate, it is definitely not the case that "Greek scholars" unanimously hold your view. This is a living and debatable issue.

[RBerman]

The sacraments are the ordinary means through which Christ offers grace necessary for salvation.

How do you know that? 1 Corinthians speaks of the dangers of wrongly taking the Lord's Supper but says little about its benefits, let alone its necessity for salvation. Ditto with most of the other rituals deemed "sacraments" by the Roman Church. The only one even used in the same breath as "salvation" in the Bible is baptism, though even there, the point is not that baptism mechanistically causes salvation.

[robrecht]

Oh....right. Forgot about that part. Yeah, Baptism is the exception, there, anyone can do that.

Also Marriage, which is only witnessed to by a minister. Not to mention any of the other sacraments performed by priests whose validity is recognized by the Catholic Church but who are not themselves members of or even in full communion with the Catholic Church.

[TimelessTheist]

How do you know that? 1 Corinthians speaks of the dangers of wrongly taking the Lord's Supper but says little about its benefits, let alone its necessity for salvation. Ditto with most of the other rituals deemed "sacraments" by the Roman Church. The only one even used in the same breath as "salvation" in the Bible is baptism, though even there, the point is not that baptism mechanistically causes salvation.

Baptism does not cause salvation? Please point to a verse that supports this, 'cause pretty much all of them say it does.

[RBerman]

Baptism does not cause salvation? Please point to a verse that supports this, 'cause pretty much all of them say it does.

You are failing to address the main point of my previous post while focusing on a case I admitted was more debatable. Can we address the core issue first?

[TimelessTheist]

You are failing to address the main point of my previous post while focusing on a case I admitted was more debatable. Can we address the core issue first?

What, you mean about the two different words for the word "rock"? Didn't I already explain that, multiple times now?

[RBerman]

What, you mean about the two different words for the word "rock"? Didn't I already explain that, multiple times now?

No; if you'll go back through this chain of replies, you'll see that we were discussing the sacraments. You said the sacraments were the ordinary means of grace for salvation. An end to be sure. But THE end?