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Is not the Quran a 100% preserved?

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  • Al Fatiha
    Translation
    The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.
    Transliteration
    Ṣirāṭ al-laḏīna an’amta ‘alayhim ġayril maġḍūbi ‘alayhim walāḍ ḍāllīn

    The Quran is in Arabic---tanslations are exegesis---NOT Quran.
    This verse of Al Fatiha does not mention Jews or Christians.
    Quranic terms for Jews or Christians are Yehud, (Jew) Nasiriya, (Christian) Ahl al Kitab (people of the Book) Bani Israel (Children of Israel)....None of these terms/labels are mentioned in the Arabic Quran for this verse.

    Comment


    • Coherence
      1. the quality of being logical and consistent.
      2.the quality of forming a unified whole.

      Coherence in linguistics is what makes a text semantically meaningful.
      ...a text coheres only if the world around is also coherent.
      ...a textual world is created that does not have to comply to the real world. But within this textual world the arguments also have to be connected logically so that the reader/hearer can produce coherence.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coherence_(linguistics)

      Schema
      In psychology and cognitive science, a schema (plural schemata or schemas) describes a pattern of thought or behavior that organizes categories of information and the relationships among them.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(psychology)


      The Quranic coherence is based on its paradigm (world-view) which is created using "schema" ---defining/re-defining concepts/terms and their interrelations.
      Muslim scholars have studied the art of "Balagha" (rhetoric) of the Quran.
      Books have been written by Muslim scholars on "Nazm" (Coherence) of the Quran
      ....etc....etc......

      How in-depth do you want to go in this subject?

      Comment


      • An incomplete retort like this, is just your pathetic attempt to cover-up the some of the plentiful fallacies of your koran.

        In this case of sura 1 / fatihah of the koran, the exegesis of HATE SPEECH and vilification propounded, promoted and advanced by Islam and muslims as enjoined in verses 6-7 are already EXPLAINED by the OFFICIAL Sunna of islam, endorsed & given the stamp of orthodox approval by the Sunni Ahadith - as in al-Bukhari, Muslim etc!

        Why would Hilali Khan provide the clarification in his version of this verse to mean the JEWS and Christians IF he did not have sufficient support from orthodox islamic sources?

        "The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians)." S. 1:7 Hilali-Khan

        According to the AUTHORITATIVE, MUSLIM sources, THE JEWS are the ones who have incurred Allah's WRATH / CURSE / CONDEMNATION, and THE CHRISTIANS are those who have GONE ASTRAY & LOST THEIR WAY:

        "The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians)." S. 1:7 Hilali-Khan

        Narrated Adi bin Hatim: I asked Allah’s Messenger (1) about the Statement of Allah: "Gharil maghdubi ‘alaihim - not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger - WRATH AND CURSE!" he replied: "THEY ARE THE JEWS".

        And (2): "Walad dallin (nor of those who went astray)," he replied: "THE CHRISTIANS, and they are THE ONES WHO WENT ASTRAY".

        This is confirmation of VILIFICATION and Hate Speech from these koran verses form sura fatiha against the Christian and the Jews.

        [The above Hadith are quoted by At-Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud].

        FROM: Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din al-Hilali and Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, Interpretation of the Meanings of the Noble Qur’an in the English Language with Comments from Tafsir At-Tabari, Tafsir Al-Qurtubi and Tafsir Ibn Kathir and Ahadith from Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim and other Ahadith books [Darussalam Publishers & Distributors, Riyadh, Lahore, Houston, New York], Part 1: From Surah 1 to 5, p. 30.

        The above statements are 100% CONFIRMATION from recognised modern muslim scholars and authorities like Muhd Muhsin Khan, Taqiuddin al-Hilali and the classical ulamas and the Tafsirs (commentaries, exegesis etc) of recognised luminaries like ibn Kathir, Tabari, Qurtubi

        And, WHAT Part of "adversarial" and Hate speech & vilification don't you understand from the above, siam?

        Do you really want to deny the Hadith sahih at-Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud above, Siam? Islam's orthodox sources? U know something the ulema / scholars, DO NOT?!? No mention of the terms there, but clarity and confirmation - as clear as crystal and the light of day GIVEN by the muslim theologians and scholars:

        Narrated Adi bin Hatim:

        "I ASKED Allah’s Messenger (1) about the Statement of Allah: "Gharil maghdubi ‘alaihim - not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger - WRATH AND CURSE!" he replied: "THEY ARE THE JEWS".

        And (2): "Walad dallin (nor of those who went astray)," he replied: "THE CHRISTIANS, and they are THE ONES WHO WENT ASTRAY".

        - The above Hadith are quoted by At-Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud.

        FROM: Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din al-Hilali and Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, Interpretation of the Meanings of the Noble Qur’an in the English Language with Comments from Tafsir At-Tabari, Tafsir Al-Qurtubi and Tafsir Ibn Kathir and Ahadith from Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim and other Ahadith books [Darussalam Publishers & Distributors, Riyadh, Lahore, Houston, New York], Part 1: From Surah 1 to 5, p. 30.




        Originally posted by siam View Post
        Al Fatiha
        Translation
        The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.
        Transliteration
        Ṣirāṭ al-laḏīna anÂ’amta ‘alayhim ġayril maġḍūbi ‘alayhim walāḍ ḍāllīn

        The Quran is in Arabic---tanslations are exegesis---NOT Quran.
        This verse of Al Fatiha does not mention Jews or Christians.
        Quranic terms for Jews or Christians are Yehud, (Jew) Nasiriya, (Christian) Ahl al Kitab (people of the Book) Bani Israel (Children of Israel)....None of these terms/labels are mentioned in the Arabic Quran for this verse.

        Comment


        • There are, in embarassing and heart-wrenching REALITY - for muslims especially, thousands of variants from the early Koran manuscripts and the readings or "qiraats" that have already been documented. These make for confused incoherent words and inconsistent meanings - like those found in the "seven Plus three" qiraats that orthodox exegetes of islam have conceded.

          For example, Surah 2:275 says Allathiina yaakuluunar-ribaa laa yaquumuuna (“those who devour usury will not stand”).

          Ibn Mas'ud's Koran, however, read the same but also added the following remark immediately: yawmal qiyaamati, (i.e., they would not be able to stand on the “Day of Resurrection”).

          Surah 6:153 says Wa anna haathaa siraatii – (“Verily this is my path”).

          Ibn Mas'ud's Koran, however, reads Wa haathaa siraatu rabbakum (“This is the path of Your Lord”).

          Surah 33:6 says the following about Muhammad’s wives and believers: wa azwaajuhuu ummahaatuhuu (“and his wives are their mothers”).

          Ibn-Mas'ud's Koran has the two extra words wa huwa abuu laahum (“and he is their father”).

          The number of variants in all these early Korans is so large they fill up around three hundred and fifty pages of Arthur JefferyÂ’s book "Materials For The History Of The Text Of The Qur'an."

          In regards to copyist mistakes in the 8th century Korans Muslims falsely claim are Uthmanic, as well as other fragments and partial codices from the same period, these count as textual variants. Regarding the Topkapi manuscript, Altıkulaç notes: “There are deviations from grammatical rules . . . and spelling mistakes in the Mushafs attributed to Caliph Uthman”
          (Tayyar Altıkulaç, Al-Mushaf al-Sharif Attributed to Uthman bin Affan, p. 41).

          Regarding the Samarqand manuscript Muslims also falsely claim is Uthmanic, Altıkulaç says there are “scribal mistakes and copyistsÂ’ mistakes” (Tayyar Altıkulaç, Al-Mushaf al-Sharif Attributed to Uthman bin Affan, pp. 71-72).

          With so many inconsistent and different AND added words in the qiraats, additions found in ibn Masud's and other ahruf's & qiraats like those seen in Sura 2/275, Sura 6/153, sura 33/6 shown above - among many more.

          Therefore, NO one really knows actually which of the above ayats / words are the original, true words found in the original ''mother of the book" sitting next to Allah on the so-called 'preserved tablet' / lauh mahfuz (sura 13/39 & 85/21-22) - perhaps they are ALL THERE, or none at all. That is incoherence and a contradicting Koran from the very source.

          Shame on u for trying to peddle & sell cheaply to readers here, the propoganda that the koran's many versions are consistent, when that's only a baseless, unproven polemic when examined critically and investigated factually.


          Originally posted by siam View Post
          Coherence
          1. the quality of being logical and consistent.
          2.the quality of forming a unified whole.

          Coherence in linguistics is what makes a text semantically meaningful.
          ...a text coheres only if the world around is also coherent.
          ...a textual world is created that does not have to comply to the real world. But within this textual world the arguments also have to be connected logically so that the reader/hearer can produce coherence.
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coherence_(linguistics)

          Schema
          In psychology and cognitive science, a schema (plural schemata or schemas) describes a pattern of thought or behavior that organizes categories of information and the relationships among them.
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(psychology)


          The Quranic coherence is based on its paradigm (world-view) which is created using "schema" ---defining/re-defining concepts/terms and their interrelations.
          Muslim scholars have studied the art of "Balagha" (rhetoric) of the Quran.
          Books have been written by Muslim scholars on "Nazm" (Coherence) of the Quran
          ....etc....etc......

          How in-depth do you want to go in this subject?

          Comment


          • Al Fatiha

            A Tafsir/exegesis is NOT the Quran. It is simply an opinion. There are many Tafsir. Hilali-Khan is one of them but not popular. Yusuf Ali is the most popular Tafsir.
            Saudi's are Wahabi (some refer to themselves as Salafi) Wahabism is "Purists"---that is, they feel "mainstream" Islam is inadequate/incorrect and want to establish a "reformed" Islam based on their interpretation/re-interpretation. ...and some may tend to be "against" anyone---even other Muslims.

            The Quran says Jews and Christians (and others) will enter heaven. This is because the Quran is not concerned with labels---but with intentions and character of a person.

            Comment


            • Yr post #109

              Already discussed these views. Anything new to add?...if not, move on to another topic...

              Comment


              • The HADITH cited are not opinions, take note!

                It is NOT an exegesis of sura 1/7 but a recorded clarification by your prophet muhd and his followers, Documented promptly in the Ahadith record by Tirmidhi AND Abu Dawud! Don't be deceptive here, siam!

                They recorded an actual conversation between a Muslim and Muhamed your prophet. The muslim ASKED muhd about sura 1 v.7 and Muhd REPLIED in facts.

                Don't pretend that these were "opinions", when this conversation was recorded in direct, reported speech and documented in the orthodox hadith, as such! Look again:-

                Narrated Adi bin Hatim: I ASKED Allah's Messenger (1) about the Statement of Allah: "Gharil maghdubi alaihim - not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger - WRATH AND CURSE!" HE REPLIED:- "THEY ARE THE JEWS".

                And (2): "Walad dallin (nor of those who went astray)," HE REPLIED :- "THE CHRISTIANS, and they are THE ONES WHO WENT ASTRAY".

                This is confirmation of VILIFICATION and Hate Speech from these koran verses form sura fatiha against the Christian and the Jews.

                -The above Hadith are quoted by At-Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud.

                FROM: Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din al-Hilali and Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, Interpretation of the Meanings of the Noble Quran in the English Language with Comments from Tafsir At-Tabari, Tafsir Al-Qurtubi and Tafsir Ibn Kathir and Ahadith from Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim and other Ahadith books [Darussalam Publishers & Distributors, Riyadh, Lahore, Houston, New York], Part 1: From Surah 1 to 5, p. 30.

                The above statements are 100% CONFIRMATION from recognised modern muslim scholars and authorities like Muhd Muhsin Khan, Taqiuddin al-Hilali and the classical ulamas and the Tafsirs (commentaries, exegesis etc) of recognised luminaries like ibn Kathir, Tabari, Qurtubi


                Originally posted by siam View Post
                Al Fatiha

                A Tafsir/exegesis is NOT the Quran. It is simply an opinion. There are many Tafsir. Hilali-Khan is one of them but not popular. Yusuf Ali is the most popular Tafsir.
                Saudi's are Wahabi (some refer to themselves as Salafi) Wahabism is "Purists"---that is, they feel "mainstream" Islam is inadequate/incorrect and want to establish a "reformed" Islam based on their interpretation/re-interpretation. ...and some may tend to be "against" anyone---even other Muslims.

                The Quran says Jews and Christians (and others) will enter heaven. This is because the Quran is not concerned with labels---but with intentions and character of a person.

                Comment


                • The Arabic Quran does not mention Christians/Jews in Al-Fatiha.

                  Hadith have levels of authenticity and have to be understood in context.

                  Hilali-Khan is not a popular Tafsir...it has been criticized by some scholars. Wahabism is not mainstream Islam.

                  Intolerant views have the potential to cause harm and injustice to society. On the other hand...some people have a strong need for identity/tribalism that leads them towards intolerant views/ideologies. This is universal. Christianity also has the same problem.
                  In my opinion, it is upto the "mainstream"---the tolerant, pluralistic, religio-ideologies to guide/persuade such people to the "right path"/straight way---and to encourage them away from the path that leads them astray or that brings wrath. (the path of harm and injustice)
                  Last edited by siam; 08-03-2020, 01:04 AM.

                  Comment


                  • It doesn't matter if they have "levels of authenticity" or not. Thats your problem not mine, or the non-muslims.

                    The documented records do actually record Muhd (your "prophet") as answering directly the question from another muslim who the 2 groups mentioned in sura 1 v7, to be!

                    His recorded answer was they are the Jews and Christians respectively.

                    The plain facts that there are muslim scholars who accept the accuracy AND proper transmission of this hadith record validates the facts of it and it's relevance AND applicability today.

                    Otherwise, the plain conclusion is that you make your prophet Muhamed a liar and avid deceiver and all the hadith chain and custodians that record this conversation equally liars and deceivers too.

                    Your cherry picking and selective reading of the orthodox sources of islam just proved your duplicity and deviousness and your pathetic ignorance of your own islam.

                    FYI, Jesus Christ NEITHER said NOR enjoined all the violent & similar things that the koran and sunnah of muhd said. Showing that islam is inherently and consistently violent from both the Koran and hadith sources. And obviously confirmed by its consistent history of violence, hegemonism and forcefulness from the very beginning right through today!



                    Originally posted by siam View Post
                    The Arabic Quran does not mention Christians/Jews in Al-Fatiha.

                    Hadith have levels of authenticity and have to be understood in context.

                    Hilali-Khan is not a popular Tafsir...it has been criticized by some scholars. Wahabism is not mainstream Islam.

                    Intolerant views have the potential to cause harm and injustice to society. On the other hand...some people have a strong need for identity/tribalism that leads them towards intolerant views/ideologies. This is universal. Christianity also has the same problem.
                    In my opinion, it is upto the "mainstream"---the tolerant, pluralistic, religio-ideologies to guide/persuade such people to the "right path"/straight way---and to encourage them away from the path that leads them astray or that brings wrath. (the path of harm and injustice)

                    Comment


                    • There is further concealment and deletions by muslim “scholar” Yasir Qadhi and missionary M. Hijab of their interview on the so-called “perfect preservation of the Koran”. Removing the whole interview wherein Qadhi admitted that the standard Islamic narrative of the preservation of the Koran “has holes in it”, , it has just disappeared 👻 ! Initially, Hijab deleted the part of QadhiÂ’s admission that Islam and Muslims have no good explanations for the holes and fallacious narrative of Koranic preservation.

                      Now, both of them have removed the entire interview from their sites. This just confirms that both these Muslims have a lot of things to hide, and confirms the suspicions that the koran is a really unreliable source for facts and truth! And therefore CANNOT come from the true God.

                      Here is the link that discusses this (From the 2:40 mark, it gets very interesting..) - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FJs95LZX9tw

                      Comment


                      • An intelligent and intellectual MUSLIMS like for example Ali Dashti was able to conclude this about the inconsistencies and flaws of the Koran:

                        "The Qor'an contains sentences which are incomplete and not fully intelligible without the aid of commentaries; foreign words, unfamiliar Arabic words, and words used with other than the normal meaning; adjectives and verbs inflected without observance of the concords of gender and number; illogically and ungrammatically applied pronouns which sometimes have no referent; and predicates which in rhymed passages are often remote from the subjects.

                        "These and other SUCH ABERRATIONS in the language have given scope to critics who deny the Qor'an's eloquence. THE PROBLEM ALSO OCCUPIED THE MINDS OF DEVOUT MOSLEMS. It forced the commentators to search for explanations and was probably one of the causes of disagreement over readings." (pp. 48-49)

                        The views on the Qor'an held by Ebrahim on-Nazzam have been already mentioned, and it must be added that THEY WERE NOT HIS ALONE, but were also held by other scholars of the Mo'tazelite school such as Hesham b. 'Amr pl-Fuwati (d. ca. 218/833) and 'Abbad b. Solayman (d. ca. 250/864). ALL WERE DEVOUT BELIEVERS.

                        The great and penetrating Arab thinker Abu'l-'Ala ol-Ma'arri considered some of his own writings ON A PAR WITH THE ELOQUENCE OF THE QOR'AN. (p. 50)

                        "To sum up, more than ONE HUNDRED Qor'anic aberrations from the normal rules and structure of Arabic have been noted. Needless to say, THE COMMENTATORS STROVE TO FIND EXPLANATIONS AND JUSTIFICATIONS FOR THESE IRREGULARITIES. Among them was the great commentator and philologist MAHMUD OZ-ZAMAKHSHARI (467/1075-538/1144)

                        Ali Dashti, 23 Years: A study of the Prophetic Career of Muhammad, Mazda Publishers,U.S.; 1994

                        Dashti's admissions were published over 25 years ago. Today, more honest, bolder and intellectual confident Muslims are saying even more revelatory exposes about the "holes in islam's Koran"!

                        Comment


                        • In Islam, IT IS actually God/Allah that decides arbitrarily who enters heaven/paradise or hell. Not the 'intentions or character' of ANYBODY. This is verified and according to islam's authentic Hadith like these:
                          "Verily Allah created Adam and then rubbed his back with His right hand and took out a progeny from him and said: I created these for Paradise and with the actions of the inmates of Paradise which they will do. Afterwards he rubbed his back with His hand and took out a progeny from him and said: I CREATED THESE FOR HELL and with the actions of the inmates of Hell which they will do".

                          - Mishkat al-Masabih, Vol.3, p.107


                          and-

                          Hadith No: 22
                          Narrated/Authority of Abdur-Rahman bin Qatada As-Salami
                          I heard the Prophet (SAW) saying: Allah created Adam, took his progeny from his back and said: These will go to Hell and these will go to Paradise. Somebody said, the narrator added: 0 Messenger of Allah, what shall we do then? The Prophet muhamed said: You will do according to your destiny.

                          (This Hadith is good and narrated by Ahmad)

                          View the above Hadith (# 22) from this islamic hadith link: https://ahadith.co.uk/110ahadithqudsi.php


                          This hadith confirms the Islamic teaching that Allah fatalistically sends his creatures to hell, as well as to heaven. This does not speak to me of a truly loving or merciful God, in any way.

                          Now, from the koran:
                          ALLAH leads astray whomsoever He will and guides whomsoever he will - surah 14/4
                          Do you wish to guide him whom ALLAH HAS CAUSED TO ERR? And whomsoever Allah CAUSES to err, you shall by no means find a way for him - surah 4/88

                          & these 2 ayats/verses form the koran ( and MANY MORE) prove that God or "Allah" over rides the "free-will" of Man, causing them to to actions leading to hell and to the other side (ie.hell/jahannam), no amount of "good intentions" nor good "character" has any part to play in admission into the islamic paradise - ONLY THE FATALISTIC DETERMINISM OF your god, Allah, which was already pre-determined when Allah made Adam, the "first man"..



                          Originally posted by siam View Post
                          Al Fatiha

                          A Tafsir/exegesis is NOT the Quran. It is simply an opinion. There are many Tafsir. Hilali-Khan is one of them but not popular. Yusuf Ali is the most popular Tafsir.
                          Saudi's are Wahabi (some refer to themselves as Salafi) Wahabism is "Purists"---that is, they feel "mainstream" Islam is inadequate/incorrect and want to establish a "reformed" Islam based on their interpretation/re-interpretation. ...and some may tend to be "against" anyone---even other Muslims.

                          The Quran says Jews and Christians (and others) will enter heaven. This is because the Quran is not concerned with labels---but with intentions and character of a person.

                          Comment


                          • "Jews and Christians..will enter heaven.."??
                            According to THE KORAN??

                            My foot!

                            What ignorance that you display Siam, or your deceit to mislead non-muslims.

                            This is what the koran actually says about "Christians (NOT) entering heaven" - in contradiction to your claim..

                            "Verily, those who disbelieve from among the people of the Scripture (ie Christians and Jews) and those who associate gods with God shall be CONSIGNED TO THE FIRE OF HELL, therein they shall abide. It is they who are the WORST of all creatures."

                            Surah al-Bayinnah 98/6.

                            There are hadith that also claim that Christians and Jews will be sent to hell in the place of Muslims, who will be redeemed by the punishment on the Christians.

                            THROWING OF NON-BELIEVERS IN HELL-FIRE FOR BELIEVERS AS DIVINE GRACE AND MERCY

                            "Abu Musa' reported that Allah's Messenger said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a JEW or a CHRISTIAN and say: That is your RESCUE from Hell-Fire."
                            (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6665)

                            "Abu Burda reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Apostle said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit IN HIS STEAD a JEW or a CHRISTIAN in Hell-Fire. 'Umar b. Abd al-'Aziz took an oath: By One besides Whom there is no god but He, thrice that his father had narrated that to him from Allah's Messenger."
                            (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6666)

                            "Abu Burda reported Allah's Messenger as saying: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with AS HEAVY SINS AS A MOUNTAIN, and Allah would FORGIVE THEM and He would PLACE IN THEIR STEAD the JEWS and the CHRISTIANS. (As far as I think), Abu Raub said: I do not know as to who is in doubt. Abu Burda said: I narrated it to 'Umar b. 'Abd al-'Aziz, whereupon he said: Was it your father who narrated it to you from Allah's Apostle? I said: Yes."
                            (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6668)

                            432. Abu Musa al-Ash'ari reported that the Messenger of Allah said, "On the Day of Rising, Allah will hand over a Jew or a Christian to every Muslim and say, ‘Here is your redemption from the Fire’."
                            [Sahih Muslim]




                            Originally posted by siam View Post
                            Al Fatiha

                            A Tafsir/exegesis is NOT the Quran. It is simply an opinion. There are many Tafsir. Hilali-Khan is one of them but not popular. Yusuf Ali is the most popular Tafsir.
                            Saudi's are Wahabi (some refer to themselves as Salafi) Wahabism is "Purists"---that is, they feel "mainstream" Islam is inadequate/incorrect and want to establish a "reformed" Islam based on their interpretation/re-interpretation. ...and some may tend to be "against" anyone---even other Muslims.

                            The Quran says Jews and Christians (and others) will enter heaven. This is because the Quran is not concerned with labels---but with intentions and character of a person.

                            Comment

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