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  • #46
    The notion of "Allah's love" is at best contradictory and outrightly inconsistent in the Koran.

    Below are more concrete examples of the twisted notion of "love" in the Koran.
    Allah's "love" is obviously conditional upon fulfilling certain conditions stipulated below.

    1. God does NOT LOVE those who overstep the boundaries or limits.

    2:190 Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth NOT transgressors [la uhibb al-mua'tadeen]

    5:90 O ye who Believe! Make not unlawful the good things which Allah hath made lawful for you, but commit no excess: For Allah loves NOT those given to excess [la uhibb al-mua'tadeen]

    7:55 Call on your Lord with humility and in private: For Allah loveth NOT those who trespass beyond bounds. [la uhibb al-mua'tadeen]

    2. God does NOT love the al-fasideen - the corrupt.

    2:205 When he turns his back, his aim everywhere is to spread mischief through the earth and destroy crops and cattle. But Allah loveth [hubb] not mischief. [alfsad]

    5:67 The Jews say: "Allah's hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched: He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleases. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them We have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgement. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loves [hubb] NOT those who do mischief [al-mufasideen]

    28:77 "But seek, with the (wealth) which Allah has bestowed on thee, the Home of the Hereafter, nor forget thy portion in this world: But do thou good, as Allah has been good to thee, and seek not (occasions for) mischief in the land: For Allah loves [hubb] NOT those who do mischief." [al-mufasideen].

    It is not possible, according to the Qur'an, for men to actually experience God's love in their very own hearts such as a son's experience of his father's love.

    God is indeed called the "Loving One" (al- Wadud) in the Qur'an but only on two occasions (Surahs 11.90, 85.14). This statement, however, does not imply the depth of love in the nature of God such as is found in the Biblical declaration "God is love" (1 John 4:8). Instead one of the great theologians in Islamic history,) al-Ghazzali, painfully informs us that the expresssion "the Loving One" means FAR LESS than the title would seem to indicate.

    In his work on the names of God in the Qur'an entitled Al-Maqsad Al-Asna he states that this this title in the Qur'an is a lesser one, for example, than "the Merciful" (ar-Rahim) - an opinion with which we find ourselves compelled to agree, for God is called "the Merciful" over two hundred times in the Qur'an but "the Loving One" only twice. Al-Ghazzali explains this love as consisting solely of objective acts of kindness and expressions of approval. He denies that there is any subjectivity in the love of God, that is, that God feels any love in his own heart towards mankind.

    "He remains above the feeling of love". (Al-Maqsad Al-Asna, p.91).

    My earlier post also showed how Allah in the Koran MISLEADS People astray, and once misled by the Allah of Islam, there is no hope AT ALL for the salvation of these misled people for recovery.

    This casts a huge doubt upon and questions the integrity of the islamic "Allah"s so-called love. A truly loving God would never mislead his creatures astray - as is declared in the Quran.

    The orthodox islamic Hadith confirms the above and siam will do well to study these references with an open mind before responding with polemics and more misrepresentation about the Biblical facts regarding Jesus Christ...:

    In the context of this hadith - which is very consistent with the teaching of the Qur'an about the attitude of Allah towards mankind (Surah 5:18) - we see very clearly the total lack of sentiment about genuine love:

    "Verily Allah created Adam and then rubbed his back with His right hand and took out a progeny from him and said: I created these for Paradise and with the actions of the inmates of Paradise which they will do. Afterwards he rubbed his back with His hand and took out a progeny from him and said: I CREATED THESE FOR HELL and with the actions of the inmates of Hell which they will do".
    (Mishkat al-Masabih, Vol.3, p.107)

    This hadith confirms the Islamic teaching that Allah sends his creatures to hell, as well as to heaven. This does not speak to me of a truly loving God, in any way.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
      The notion of "Allah's love" is at best contradictory and outrightly inconsistent in the Koran.

      Below are more concrete examples of the twisted notion of "love" in the Koran.
      Allah's "love" is obviously conditional upon fulfilling certain conditions stipulated below.

      1. God does NOT LOVE those who overstep the boundaries or limits.
      ....

      It is not possible, according to the Qur'an, for men to actually experience God's love in their very own hearts such as a son's experience of his father's love.

      God is indeed called the "Loving One" (al- Wadud) in the Qur'an but only on two occasions (Surahs 11.90, 85.14). This statement, however, does not imply the depth of love in the nature of God such as is found in the Biblical declaration "God is love" (1 John 4:8). Instead one of the great theologians in Islamic history,) al-Ghazzali, painfully informs us that the expresssion "the Loving One" means FAR LESS than the title would seem to indicate.

      In his work on the names of God in the Qur'an entitled Al-Maqsad Al-Asna he states that this this title in the Qur'an is a lesser one, for example, than "the Merciful" (ar-Rahim) - an opinion with which we find ourselves compelled to agree, for God is called "the Merciful" over two hundred times in the Qur'an but "the Loving One" only twice. Al-Ghazzali explains this love as consisting solely of objective acts of kindness and expressions of approval. He denies that there is any subjectivity in the love of God, that is, that God feels any love in his own heart towards mankind....
      Love---a cascade of chemical reactions?....sexual attraction?...feelings of deep affection?...obsession?....there are many ways to understand and define "love".
      IMO, If we understand "Love" as care and nurturing---then God's love for humanity/creation is clear and evident in every moment of time...(no sacrifice--human or divine, necessary to make it evident).
      The Tao te Ching says it well...
      The Tao gives birth to all beings,
      nourishes them
      maintains them,
      cares for them,
      comforts them,
      protects them,
      takes them back to itself,
      creating without possessing,
      acting without expecting
      guiding without interfering
      That is why the love of Tao
      is in the very nature of things
      (Tao=God)

      Reciprocity= God "loves" humanity---that is evident---what can humanity do to return that love?...

      Rumi is a globally favourite (Muslim) poet who speaks about "Love of God"
      Rabia Al Basri and Ibn Arabi are others who have deeply thought on the subject.

      Comment


      • #48
        Well, tragically quoting from an UNislamic source like the "Tao te Ching" which are Chinese doctrines with occultic divination elements embedded essentially into it, does not serve your cause to persuade the true lovingkindness of Allah, the God of islam as taught in the koran.

        I actually quoted in context, the ayats and verses of the koran directly pertaining to God's "love" in islam and we find that Allah does not "nurture" many segments of society and humanity. Because he "loves not the sinners," nor the trespassers, nor the unclean, nor the rebellious, and many more.

        He loves but only very selectively, not just that, he only loves quite conditionally certain groups of people.

        Unlike the God of the Bible, particularly in the Gospels and the NT, God shows ie. Demonstrates concretely, His own love toward us, in that WHILE we are still sinners, rebellious, unclean and disobedient, He loved us, UNCONDITIONALLY.

        Jesus Christ Himself expounded on this, in His famous Parable of the Prodigal son in the synoptics.

        We find the so-called "love of Allah" truly inconsistent and contradictory, when on the Sunnah of islam we find narratives like:-

        "Verily Allah created Adam and then rubbed his back with His right hand and took out a progeny from him and said: I created these for Paradise and with the actions of the inmates of Paradise which they will do. Afterwards he rubbed his back with His hand and took out a progeny from him and said: I CREATED THESE FOR HELL and with the actions of the inmates of Hell which they will do".
        (Mishkat al-Masabih, Vol.3, p.107)

        Also, verses from the koran like:-

        2:190 Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah LOVES NOT transgressors [la uhibb al-mua'tadeen]

        5:90 O ye who Believe! Make not unlawful the good things which Allah hath made lawful for you, but commit no excess: For Allah LOVES NOT those given to excess [la uhibb al-mua'tadeen]

        7:55 Call on your Lord with humility and in private: For Allah LOVES NOT those who trespass beyond bounds. [la uhibb al-mua'tadeen]

        5:67 Amongst them We have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgement. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah LOVES NOT those who do mischief [al-mufasideen]

        You say that "Allah loves.." but the koranic verses above and many more, contradict your claim explicitly.

        Actually the verses both from the koran and hadith shown above, only prove the utterly deterministic trait of the koran's Allah. He sends souls of people to BOTH paradise AND to hell!

        The above is from both al-Bukhari and the Mishkat hadith sources of islam.

        Taken to its natural and logical conclusion, there is really no free will in islam. All has already been pre-determined by Allah and absolutely NOTHING can change the FATE of humanity. This is the Qada and Qadar of Allah - the fatalistic determinism forced by Allah upon all mankind.

        Allah said: "I CREATED THESE (PEOPLE) FOR HELL and WITH THE ACTIONS of the inmates of Hell which THEY WILL DO".. quoted from the Mishkat source above.

        Determinism like that from a deity, is nothing other than fatalistic control over people.

        It has nothing to do, and can have nothing to do, with a loving, kind and compassionate God. The likes of which is supremely manifested in the Unconditional and imperious Love of the Heavenly Father of the Lord Jesus Christ.

        He not only "nurtures, cares, comforts, nourishes, protects" etc humanity.

        He sent His living Word, the Logos, the Kalimatullah, Jesus Christ to come himself to live amongst humanity.

        And to express the traits and character of the One, true living GOD to us, in a way that we could begin to understand Him. Ultimately by redeeming us in the ultimate loving sacrifice of the Atonement.

        Now, THAT is a real, true love which is involved and sacrificial, and incomparable.



        Originally posted by siam View Post
        Love---a cascade of chemical reactions?....sexual attraction?...feelings of deep affection?...obsession?....there are many ways to understand and define "love".
        IMO, If we understand "Love" as care and nurturing---then God's love for humanity/creation is clear and evident in every moment of time...(no sacrifice--human or divine, necessary to make it evident).
        The Tao te Ching says it well...
        The Tao gives birth to all beings,
        nourishes them
        maintains them,
        cares for them,
        comforts them,
        protects them,
        takes them back to itself,
        creating without possessing,
        acting without expecting
        guiding without interfering
        That is why the love of Tao
        is in the very nature of things
        (Tao=God)

        Reciprocity= God "loves" humanity---that is evident---what can humanity do to return that love?...

        Rumi is a globally favourite (Muslim) poet who speaks about "Love of God"
        Rabia Al Basri and Ibn Arabi are others who have deeply thought on the subject.

        Comment


        • #49
          U said God loves UNCONDITIONALLY in Christianity---
          but
          Christians believe there is hell right? there would not be hell if this love was unconditional....?....

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by siam View Post
            U said God loves UNCONDITIONALLY in Christianity---
            but
            Christians believe there is hell right? there would not be hell if this love was unconditional....?....
            The offer of salvation is given to all mankind freely and unconditionally. People who go to hell do so because they reject God's freely offered gift of salvation. God's love being unconditional is not inconsistent with a world where some people go to hell, given that unconditional love does not trump man's God-given ability to reject it (free will). If it did it would not be love any more.
            ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

            Comment


            • #51
              And u have grossly misunderstood the real meaning of "unconditional" in the Gospel.

              God already showed human beings His unconditional love by accepting sinful humans through the gift of redemption and atonement, which was the mission of Christ Jesus on earth expressed by Christ himself (Matthew 20:28).

              Hell is reserved for those who reject the expression of God's unconditional love for their salvation through the atoning sacrifice of His chosen one, Jesus Christ.

              John 3:16-18 (ESV): For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

              For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

              Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

              Unlike in surah 4/88-90 - "Do you desire to guide him whom ALLAH HAS FORSAKEN? And he whom Allah forsakes, you will not find for him a way of deliverance."

              So Allah/God forsakes and misleads people away from salvation. And for them there is no hope at all. This is in line with the Hadith al Bukhari and in the Mishkat hadith too.






              Originally posted by siam View Post
              U said God loves UNCONDITIONALLY in Christianity---
              but
              Christians believe there is hell right? there would not be hell if this love was unconditional....?....

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                The offer of salvation is given to all mankind freely and unconditionally. People who go to hell do so because they reject God's freely offered gift of salvation. God's love being unconditional is not inconsistent with a world where some people go to hell, given that unconditional love does not trump man's God-given ability to reject it (free will). If it did it would not be love any more.
                Then our definition of "unconditional" is different---if God punishes people for not believing in a set of presumptions then that IS a conditional love. The condition of rejection is attached to it...."unconditional" would be--- regardless of acceptance or rejection, a person would go to heaven.
                likewise---if your faith in One God depends on what type of presumptions are acceptable for you---that too is conditional faith.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                  And u have grossly misunderstood the real meaning of "unconditional" in the Gospel.

                  God already showed human beings His unconditional love by accepting sinful humans through the gift of redemption and atonement, which was the mission of Christ Jesus on earth expressed by Christ himself (Matthew 20:28).

                  Hell is reserved for those who reject the expression of God's unconditional love for their salvation through the atoning sacrifice of His chosen one, Jesus Christ.

                  John 3:16-18 (ESV): For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

                  For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

                  Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
                  If God accepted "sinful" humans unconditionally---there would be no hell.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by siam View Post
                    Then our definition of "unconditional" is different---if God punishes people for not believing in a set of presumptions then that IS a conditional love. The condition of rejection is attached to it...."unconditional" would be--- regardless of acceptance or rejection, a person would go to heaven.
                    likewise---if your faith in One God depends on what type of presumptions are acceptable for you---that too is conditional faith.
                    It's not the definition of unconditional that is different, it's the definition of love. Unconditional simply means that the gift is offered to everyone, no strings attached. Unconditional doesn't mean the recipient cannot reject the gift. If they couldn't it wouldn't be an expression of God's love anymore. If you force your "love" on someone without giving them the option to reject it it ceases to be love.

                    So you're wrong on two fronts. You're wrong about Christianity teaching that God punishes people for "not believing in a set of presumptions" (people are punished for their wrongdoings, not for what they might or might not believe) and you're wrong about what unconditional love entails.
                    ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                      It's not the definition of unconditional that is different, it's the definition of love. Unconditional simply means that the gift is offered to everyone, no strings attached. Unconditional doesn't mean the recipient cannot reject the gift. If they couldn't it wouldn't be an expression of God's love anymore. If you force your "love" on someone without giving them the option to reject it it ceases to be love.

                      So you're wrong on two fronts. You're wrong about Christianity teaching that God punishes people for "not believing in a set of presumptions" (people are punished for their wrongdoings, not for what they might or might not believe) and you're wrong about what unconditional love entails.
                      ok...so

                      1) God "loves" everyone regardless if the person is good/bad believer/unbeliever...correct?
                      2) God does not punish people for accepting or rejecting a set of presumptions/doctrines...correct?
                      3) Heaven/Hell is about Justice---that is, intentions and actions (or "works")...correct?

                      Does yr definition of "love" include ---care, nurture, protect, guide, ...etc?

                      if so, then both Christian and Muslim concepts of God's care, compassion and mercy for all its creations---including humans---is similar.
                      If Heaven/Hell is about Judgment of human actions and intentions in their lives on earth---and that Divine Justice is tempered with compassion and mercy---then this too would be similar between Christians and Muslims.
                      But...
                      In Islam/Quran the presumption of "One God" as creator of all humanity and of all creation is an important ethico-moral presumption. Without this presumption---one cannot adequately understand equality and without an adequate understanding of equality---we cannot have ethics or ethical justice. (Equality = all human beings are of equivalent value) It is when we presume that God is the creator of all humanity that it follows that all humanity are "brothers" and of equivalent value---none superior or inferior to the other. This concept can lead to the "golden rule" Do unto your brother what you would have him do to you....that is, if we asked the question---would we do this to our own brother?---it would give answers to questions such as---is torture necessary for our protection?---if the psychologists who designed the tortures had asked themselves---what if my own brother were the recipient of this?...they would have known it was wrong no matter what the legal system said....
                      In order to act rightly, one needs right intentions that are guided by right belief. (God's will = Right belief that promotes right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations)

                      Therefore, in this aspect there may be a slight difference between Muslims and Christians because if wrong belief leads to harm---then Justice demands punishment.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        A wrong presumption on your part again. God taking the punishment of sins on humanity's behalf, does not mean there "would be no hell".

                        Hell implies that sin and it's effects must be accounted for, and be punished. And that punishment was taken by the Son of God himself - Jesus Christ, Who already declared when on earth, His mission was "not to be served but to..SACRIFICE (GIVE) HIS LIFE AS A RANSOM i.e. REDEMPTIVE ATONEMENT, FOR MANY," Matthew 20v28.

                        Jesus Christ also spoke multiple times about his own impending death, that actually happened over 2,000 years ago on the mount Golgotha. As recorded in the Synoptic Gospels. That was totally in line with what His mission actually was (which was NOT to 'foretell the coming of Muhamed over ' 600 over years later).

                        Jesus Christ taking humanity's punishment for sin is the implementation of divine justice AND love simultaneously, not His love at the expense of God's justice.

                        It's like a court Judge passing judgment of a $500 fine - or 1 month's jail term in lieu, on a bankrupt criminal for a car theft, then paying the fine himself on behalf of the thief. Because that thief was also the Judge's son.

                        Justice demanded that punishment for the crime ("sin") of theft be meted out. And the Judge, out of deep love for his son, took that punishment UPON HIMSELF by paying the penalty fine, so that this son does not go to jail.

                        The demands of Both justice AND love were met by the actions of the righteous court Judge that day.

                        That in part, is what Romans 5:8 means.

                        "Romans 5:8 (ESV) - But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."



                        Originally posted by siam View Post
                        If God accepted "sinful" humans unconditionally---there would be no hell.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                          1) God taking the punishment of sins on humanity's behalf, does not mean there "would be no hell".



                          2) Jesus Christ taking humanity's punishment for sin is the implementation of divine justice AND love simultaneously, not His love at the expense of God's justice.

                          It's like a court Judge passing judgment of a $500 fine - or 1 month's jail term in lieu, on a bankrupt criminal for a car theft, then paying the fine himself on behalf of the thief. Because that thief was also the Judge's son.

                          Justice demanded that punishment for the crime ("sin") of theft be meted out. And the Judge, out of deep love for his son, took that punishment UPON HIMSELF by paying the penalty fine, so that this son does not go to jail.

                          The demands of Both justice AND love were met by the actions of the righteous court Judge that day.
                          1) why not?

                          2) A Judge in a courtroom pays a fine for a car thief who happens to be his son.
                          According to you---this is both love and justice
                          But I have several problems.....
                          a) As a parent, this "father-figure" has failed in his responsibilities to properly guide his son as to right/wrong. By paying the fine---the father has not only allowed bad behavior but perhaps rewarded it.
                          b) As a judge, this person has acted unfairly and therefore, unprofessionally---by personally paying the fine simply because the criminal was related/his son, and the judge did not want him to go to jail---he circumvented proper justice.
                          I conclude that both as a father and a judge he failed.
                          As an ethico-moral principle---it fails too---since this encourages people in the community to think that they can get away with crimes if they have a "connection" to someone in power.

                          a more accurate analogy would be:-
                          A Judge in a courtroom hands down the sentence of jail-time or fine for a car-thief---then proceeds to let the car-thief go and puts his own son in jail for the crime the car-thief committed.
                          In this case too---as an ethico-moral principle, it fails miserably---as this implies that any criminal can go find a substitute to take the punishment for his crimes....and it does not matter if that substitute is innocent.
                          As examples of love and justice---it fails even more spectacularly.

                          In Islam, No one can take on someone else's sin/mistakes nor can they substitute anyone else for the punishment. Each merit and/or sin belongs to the individual and they alone are responsible and accountable for what they have done.
                          God is compassionate and merciful---human beings will make mistakes in their lives on earth. God forgives those who repent and ask for mercy. God forgave Prophet Adam (pbuh) when he repented. Thus, Islamic "justice" is tempered with compassion and mercy because those who sincerely repent and try to do better deserve forgiveness.
                          but.....
                          those who are arrogant and unrepentant---they need to be punished in the hopes that they will repent or that they will be guided to do right.

                          If we are to use the same analogy as yours---it would go like this:-
                          A judge in a courtroom hands down the sentence of a fine or jail time for a car thief. The criminal shows sincere remorse and asks for forgiveness, the Judge therefore reduces the sentence to community service.
                          Both mercy and compassion are shown, Guidance is given, and justice upheld. ---and if the criminal happened to be his son, then as a father he has shown his son how to have integrity, be upright, and have courage as well as compassion and mercy.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Let me tell you :

                            1) why not?

                            Because Hell implies that sin and it's penalty must be definitely accounted for, and be punished. That’s why IT IS THERE. Christianity has never dispensed with hell, like you wrongly assume “resulting from God’s Unconditional love.” That was NEVER the case, siam.

                            And that punishment was taken by the Son of God himself - Jesus Christ, Who already declared when on earth, His mission was "not to be served but to..SACRIFICE (GIVE) HIS LIFE AS A RANSOM i.e. REDEMPTIVE ATONEMENT, FOR MANY," Matthew 20v28. – Jesus mission was only the above, but NEVER to declare or foretell the “coming of another prophet called muhamed, after Jesus Christ.”
                            Like the koran falsely interpolates, twists and misrepresents Jesus Christ’s actual words, after the facts of the verifiable historic records. This is just one more example of the koran’s blatant revisionism and violence to the original recorded words and events of the New Testament and the Gospel.

                            2) According to you- the Father figure has ‘failed’ in his so-called ‘fatherly responsibilities to guide his son’. Now, this claim is just a red herring, and an unproven point. HOW do you know this was so? Have you just pretended to NOT know about human free will and his individual choice at this point? HOW do you know if this Father-Judge gave his son the best training and upbringing for the son to be a good person or not?? This is just your wild assumption with no real proof whatsoever..! You have selectively forgotten the saying “You can bring a horse of cow to the river but cannot force it to drink the water!” The Father-Judge could have well given his son the best education and upbringing, but this fellow has chosen to NOT FOLLOW the upbringing – that was totally THE SON’s CHOICE. You failed to prove any dereliction on the part of the Father-Judge.

                            b) There was absolutely no “circumvention of proper justice” like you wildly imagine. The judge was actually implementing the proper law justly. To satisfy the exact punishment prescribed for the corresponding crime righteously. This analogy illustrates pertinently the fulfilment of the law justly and the love of the father vividly.

                            HELL – IF this son refuses the gracious act of his father-the Judge, which he can, obviously. Then he can reject the intervention of the judge’s offer of paying the fine and go to jail for a couple of months, which is the punishment in lieu of failing to pay the penalty fine.

                            The judge, even though he is the criminal’s father, cannot force the son to accept OR reject his offer of loving redemption. It is the son’s total choice to do so. THIS is his exercise of real free-will. Unlike in the koran or islam.


                            c) The real ethico-moral problem and disparity lies in islam. Because Allah forces people to choose the wrong path by forsaking them – in surah 4/88-90, etc. “Do you desire to guide him whom Allah has forsaken? And he whom Allah forsakes you shall not find for him a way out” (88). Even the Hadith Mishkat and al-Bukhari agree with and prove this fact. You try to claim that verse 90 refers the context “as warfare”, but in islam there is no differentiation between the sacred and secular, between Islamic state and the military, they are all one under the Islamic system. For example, the “People of the Book”, in surah 9v29 are to BE FOUGHT AGAINST (ie. attacked and Killed) JUST FOR NOT BELIEVING in islam, not because they were fighting against or attacking the muslims or islam. The provocation to islam is just UNBELIEF in Muhamed and his teachings & propaganda, there was no indication of the people of the Book physically attacking muslims in v.29. But all these ‘unbelievers’ MUST be attacked & fought against.

                            How unethical this is!

                            Then, Allah created a group of souls and people, whom he had pre-determined to go to hell from the beginning. How IMMORAL is that? Especially when the koran claims God is so-called ‘merciful and compassionate’! There is no mercy at all in this Islamic Allah let alone ‘grace’ and compassion, which makes the verses of God’s mercy and compassion only fallacious and a farce. There is no real ‘free will’ in islam, according to the sources quoted here and in my previous posts everything is over-ridden by the fatalistic determinism of Allah, which no one can resist.

                            That is the real ethico-moral problem with islam, the koran and the sunnah from the beginning until today.




                            Originally posted by siam View Post
                            1) why not?

                            2) A Judge in a courtroom pays a fine for a car thief who happens to be his son.
                            According to you---this is both love and justice
                            But I have several problems.....
                            a) As a parent, this "father-figure" has failed in his responsibilities to properly guide his son as to right/wrong. By paying the fine---the father has not only allowed bad behavior but perhaps rewarded it.
                            b) As a judge, this person has acted unfairly and therefore, unprofessionally---by personally paying the fine simply because the criminal was related/his son, and the judge did not want him to go to jail---he circumvented proper justice.
                            I conclude that both as a father and a judge he failed.
                            As an ethico-moral principle---it fails too---since this encourages people in the community to think that they can get away with crimes if they have a "connection" to someone in power.

                            a more accurate analogy would be:-
                            A Judge in a courtroom hands down the sentence of jail-time or fine for a car-thief---then proceeds to let the car-thief go and puts his own son in jail for the crime the car-thief committed.
                            In this case too---as an ethico-moral principle, it fails miserably---as this implies that any criminal can go find a substitute to take the punishment for his crimes....and it does not matter if that substitute is innocent.
                            As examples of love and justice---it fails even more spectacularly.

                            In Islam, No one can take on someone else's sin/mistakes nor can they substitute anyone else for the punishment. Each merit and/or sin belongs to the individual and they alone are responsible and accountable for what they have done.
                            God is compassionate and merciful---human beings will make mistakes in their lives on earth. God forgives those who repent and ask for mercy. God forgave Prophet Adam (pbuh) when he repented. Thus, Islamic "justice" is tempered with compassion and mercy because those who sincerely repent and try to do better deserve forgiveness.
                            but.....
                            those who are arrogant and unrepentant---they need to be punished in the hopes that they will repent or that they will be guided to do right.

                            If we are to use the same analogy as yours---it would go like this:-
                            A judge in a courtroom hands down the sentence of a fine or jail time for a car thief. The criminal shows sincere remorse and asks for forgiveness, the Judge therefore reduces the sentence to community service.
                            Both mercy and compassion are shown, Guidance is given, and justice upheld. ---and if the criminal happened to be his son, then as a father he has shown his son how to have integrity, be upright, and have courage as well as compassion and mercy.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              The inconsistency and contradictions in the Koran and hadith are clearly seen from the following orthodox sources of islam, this relates to claims that the Koran teaches & upholds the "mercy and compassion of Allah"! :-

                              Hadith Qudsi No: 22

                              Narrated/Authority of Abdur-Rahman bin Qatada As-Salami

                              I heard the Prophet (SAW) saying: Allah created Adam, TOOK HIS PROGENY from his back and said: THESE WILL GO TO HELL and these will go to Paradise. Somebody said, the narrator added: 0 Messenger (PBUH) of Allah, what shall we do then? The Prophet (SAW) said: YOU WILL DO ACCORDING TO YOUR DESTINY.
                              (This Hadith IS GOOD and narrated by Ahmad).

                              https://ahadith.co.uk/110ahadithqudsi.php

                              "Hadith Qudsi" are words considered of the Hadith that are 'as good as those in the Koran' - Allah's words themselves..

                              And here are koranic verses that clearly show how God/Allah deliberately MISLEADS people according to his whim and fancy..:

                              Quran 6/125 -

                              Those whom Allah wills to guide, He opens their breast to Islam; Those whom HE WILLS to leave STRAYING, - HE MAKES THEIR BREAST CLOSED AND CONSTRICTED, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus does Allah lay abomination on those who refuse to believe.

                              Surah 7/178-179 -

                              Whomsoever Allah guides, he is the one who follows the right way; and WHOMSOEVER HE CAUSES TO ERR, these are the losers. MANY ARE THE JINNS AND MEN WE (Allah/God) HAVE MADE FOR HELL (jahannam).

                              Surah 11/34 -

                              My counsel will not profit you if I were minded to advise you, IF AllahÂ’s WILL IS TO KEEP YOU ASTRAY. He is your Lord and unto Him you will be returned.

                              Quran 14:4 -

                              ALLAH LEADS ASTRAY WHOMSOEVER HE WILL and guides whomsoever he will.

                              Quranic ayats and verses like the above really make mockery and a meaningless farce of "ar-rahman" & "ar-rahim" that is "merciful and compassionate" as the names of ALLAH. Because he misleads his creatures astray into hell / jahannam, and for such pre-determined souls, the Koran says there is no hope or a way of resistance for them, there is nothing they can choose to do would make any difference to what God has pre-determined and fated in his sovereign will.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                what is the Christian theory on Divine will and human will? what is the balance among the 2?

                                Comment

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