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Malaysian Christians permitted to call God "Allah"

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

    And like there are Mosques in Israel - even Jerusalem - but many Islamic territories don't allow Christian Churches.

    Why do they not allow churches to be built in Muslim countries when we allow mosques to built in the West?

    There are many Churches in present day Muslim countries e.g. Egypt, Syria, Turkey, Pakistan, and Indonesia. This is in line with the freedom of religion given in Islam.

    However it is right to note that some countries have gone against this Islamic injunction and prohibited collective worship by non-Muslims. This is wrong and completely unacceptable. Never did the Prophet Muhammad(sa) forbid the building of a church, nor did he order the demolition of a church. In fact the Holy Qur’an mentions that we Muslims are to defend Churches, and synagogues if they are attacked,
    Those who have been driven out from their homes unjustly only because they said, ‘Our Lord is Allah’ – And if Allah did not repel some men by means of others, there would surely have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is oft-commemorated. And Allah will surely help one who helps Him. Allah is indeed Powerful, Mighty. (Holy Qur’an, Ch.22:V.41)

    And the areas that do allow them often do not permit the building to be repaired so as time goes on and it falls apart that particular church will vanish.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

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    • #32

      Cite me a case/cases where 'deception' was used to introduce Christianity to non-muslims.

      It is just your facetious wild claim that we would even think of using deception for that purpose.

      Bur deception is exactly what muslims use to prevent and avoid valid criticism and critical analysis of Islam, the Koran and Muhamed - your prophet.

      It is called "islamophobia" ! Which when broken down simply means "fear of islam" (phobia='fear of'..)

      If I, as a non-muslim were fearful of islam or anything islamic, I would NEVER criticise it, Muhamed or his "Koran". The fact that I speak unflatteringly of your prophet, islam etc, without fear or favor just proves that I am Not islamophobic at all.

      That pretentious label would never stick on me, how ever hard you try to make it. I do not fear islam, nor do I have an inordinate hate of it. Only to expose the many gross deception it represents. So, think a million times before labelling non-muslim detractors thoughtlessly.



      Originally posted by siam View Post

      Deception is wrong and conversion by deception is not a great way to introduce Christianity....I would hope even Christians can agree to that?.....

      Deception is also wrong when done by Muslims to other Muslims and there was a case when a Christian governor of Indonesia used a Quran phrase (correctly) but the Purists claimed it was incorrect and the governor was put on trial ....
      https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-...atives/8412596

      These "Purists" may be equivalent to what in the west might be called "right-wing" populists----that is, because they are loud and vocal---it is easier to win elections---but their paradigm is not compatible with multivariant societies found in the East.....
      ...also, ---extreme social tensions are bad for commerce/capitalism---for this region to prosper---and for its citizens to prosper---social tensions need to be managed. This mean it is necessary and pragmatic to get back to the more pluralistic vision/paradigm of the traditional Islam of the region......

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      • #33

        In that case, cite me a case where "deception" was used to introduce Christianity to muslims as well..?


        Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
        Cite me a case/cases where 'deception' was used to introduce Christianity to non-muslims.

        It is just your facetious wild claim that we would even think of using deception for that purpose.

        Bur deception is exactly what muslims use to prevent and avoid valid criticism and critical analysis of Islam, the Koran and Muhamed - your prophet.

        It is called "islamophobia" ! Which when broken down simply means "fear of islam" (phobia='fear of'..)

        If I, as a non-muslim were fearful of islam or anything islamic, I would NEVER criticise it, Muhamed or his "Koran". The fact that I speak unflatteringly of your prophet, islam etc, without fear or favor just proves that I am Not islamophobic at all.

        That pretentious label would never stick on me, how ever hard you try to make it. I do not fear islam, nor do I have an inordinate hate of it. Only to expose the many gross deception it represents. So, think a million times before labelling non-muslim detractors thoughtlessly.




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        • #34
          WAY before Muhammed was even born and Islam was invented, the "ALLAH" term/word was already widely used by people - pagans, Christians etc all over Arabia.

          For instance, it is official islamic lore that Muhamed's father who was A PAGAN Arab - not a muslim, was named 'Abdullah' which meant in arabic "slave/servant of Allah/God" [abd' Allah].

          Proving therefore that this word/term "Allah" never belonged to Islam in the first place. It was already in currency of usage by millions of non-muslims. Later on, Islam comes along and wants to claim, copyright and curb that same word for only islam and muslims?

          Very disingenuous and laughable! And nonsensically ridiculous too, especially for muslims in Malaysia who want to claim "allah" for their exclusive use, it just shows a shallow mind and bigotry.



          Originally posted by siam View Post

          ...that is a good question....

          Before "Western" Christianity expanded Eastwards..."Eastern" Christianity (and Judaism) had used the trade routes to expand eastwards...but this expansion was limited. When these Christian scholars attempted to translate the Bible, they tried to find the most appropriate concept-word for God in that language---for example in Chinese this was "Tao" (initially)....
          ...By the time Islam came on the scene--- 2 important factors---trade winds and mass production of paper/books....made its expansion very rapid......so it spread to China, the Subcontinent , South East Asia and Australia. ---In some cases, before Christianity appeared.
          It came to Malaysia early through trade and was established by the 12th Century with the conversion of one of the Kings (Pra Ong Mahawangsa).. so "Allah" as a concept-word for God in Malay was likely well in use before Christianity came on the scene. That is probably why the Arabic "Allah" was used in translations as the most appropriate word.....

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          • #35

            Siam failed - and still fails to understand the history of the use of the word "Allah" in the region where the Malay peoples reside.

            Islam arrived in southeast Asia after Hinduism established itself - about 600 years ago. When the muslims converted the non-muslims and hindus etc to Islam, they started using the name for the one God as "Allah" as found in islam/Koran.

            THAT got enculturated and seeped into the lingua franca and vernacular of the general social milieu of the population and Allah became known and used in Malay language as the one God. Remember, no muslim claimed - even at that time & era or even before that, that "Allah" was exclusively Islam's or belonged only to the muslims.

            As this IS indeed so generically, linguistically and etymologically - Allah is not a proper name but a generic compound word from "al + ilah" = "Allah" = the God. It is pre-islamic and even pagans used it as "Allah" to point to the one God/deity.

            This "Allah" word seeped into vernacular and formal forms of Malay language with usage over time and everyone used it regardless of dialect or ethnicity or even sub-ethnicity.

            Therefore, when native malay-speaking locals wanted a printed Bible - in Malay obviously, the same word "Allah" was used to refer to the one God of the Bible and duly printed as such. This was even before Malaysia ever had a Constitution. No muslim objected AT THAT TIME, to this.









            Originally posted by Sparko View Post

            Yeah we all get that. I was just curious why they would be using Arabic when their native language is Malay, Siam explained it well.

            Comment


            • #36
              The populist use of the term "islamophobia" is a sham.

              Like I said elsewhere, if I were afraid and scared of islam, I would not write as I do - criticising and exposing the weaknesses, errors and underbelly of islam, as islamophobia means "fear of islam". I do not fear a flawed and erroneous ideology and religion like islam.

              Rather this term islamophobia is simply a nom de guerre to prevent and prohibit people from speaking unflatteringly about Islam.

              It is just a curb to justifiably and rationally critique islam, to prevent people from asking reasonable and legitimate questions about the Koran, Muhamed, Islam, muslims etc. Islam, the Koran etc cannot be called into question and therefore ways and means must be found to stop and prevent people from doing so,

              Why is islam SOooo scared and fearful to be called into question?

              Especially when calling the Koran, Muhammed, the sunnah, muslims etc into question is NOT AT ALL Islamophobic! ONLY when there is something sinister to hide do you prevent an open investigation into that religious ideology and its origins. Further, if (as it claims) islam or the Koran etc has the truth, then it what has it to fear from critical analysis and objective questioning by rational minds.

              On the other hand, it is truly a perfectly reasonable, sane and sound exercise to call islam into question - and not islamophobic at all. Think about that all you sensible, thinking people.


              Originally posted by siam View Post

              A minority experience of prejudice/discrimination should be taken seriously in any society. It is unfortunate that such calls to a more just society are ignored/dismissed....this also includes hate-crimes/islamophobia occurring in the West.....

              ideas of "Supremacy" of any kind is toxic---Islamic supremacy, Christian supremacy, Secular supremacy or White supremacy...they are all harmful for humanity and society.

              Comment


              • #37

                Orthodox and even "authentic hadiths" affirm the fact that the prophet of islam declared that "there should not be two religions in the Arab peninsula."

                This islamic scholar confirms this fact of bigotry and intolerance in islam in this video clip:

                https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=85qkjxrRoAA

                He cites the authentic hadith to support the above extremist and bigoted and confirms they are authentic. That means that islam has had an intolerant, bigoted and tyrannical stance since the beginning.

                Churches or synagogues for instance are simply forbidden to be built in say, Mecca and Madinah. Islam and its traditions do not tolerate those setups especially in the Arabian peninsula. It comes from the prophet of islam himself allegedly.


                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                And the areas that do allow them often do not permit the building to be repaired so as time goes on and it falls apart that particular church will vanish.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                  Orthodox and even "authentic hadiths" affirm the fact that the prophet of islam declared that "there should not be two religions in the Arab peninsula."

                  This islamic scholar confirms this fact of bigotry and intolerance in islam in this video clip:

                  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=85qkjxrRoAA

                  He cites the authentic hadith to support the above extremist and bigoted and confirms they are authentic. That means that islam has had an intolerant, bigoted and tyrannical stance since the beginning.

                  Churches or synagogues for instance are simply forbidden to be built in say, Mecca and Madinah. Islam and its traditions do not tolerate those setups especially in the Arabian peninsula. It comes from the prophet of islam himself allegedly.

                  A few historians have noted how when the attention of the world has been everywhere but the Arabian Peninsula that is often the time major changes are made. One of the last times was when all of the Jewish communities there vanished with nobody knowing what happened to them.

                  But I was actually thinking of how Copts and others are treated in more modern, supposedly tolerant countries like Egypt are typically treated.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #39

                    Egypt, what a sad history of enforced attrition of the Christian society there from nearly 2,000 years ago.

                    There are today only about 5-8% of Egypt's total population composed of Christians. When once the Ancient Coptic church made up 40-60 % of population, until islam came and conquered Egypt by force just a decade or two after Muhammad's death.

                    The muslim colonists forced the payment of jizya or a kind of protection money upon the Egyptian Christians for centuries based on Q9/29. Many Christian families and peoples there could not pay the exorbitant jizya extorted from them. The other option was to convert to islam to avoid paying this extortion money. Many Copts were forced into this option.

                    Thus the tragic whittling down of the Christian population from 40/50% (at least) until only 5% in Egypt today. When actually one of the earliest Christian churches-the Coptic church was founded in Egypt millenia ago, before the invention of islam happened.



                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    A few historians have noted how when the attention of the world has been everywhere but the Arabian Peninsula that is often the time major changes are made. One of the last times was when all of the Jewish communities there vanished with nobody knowing what happened to them.

                    But I was actually thinking of how Copts and others are treated in more modern, supposedly tolerant countries like Egypt are typically treated.

                    Comment

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