Creatio ex deo

[Adrift]

where the Bible does indicate there was a Divine preexistence before our physical existence was created.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

[shunyadragon]

If a substance is perfectly simple, then you can't take a part of it and fashion something else out of it. Since God is simple and without parts, then God can't fashion anything out of Himself. It would also imply a change in God which is impossible as God is unmoved and timeless.

The problem I have with this and the previous statement is that you are trying to define what is possible and not possible from God's perspective.

I still go with an eternal preexisting matrix that is a reflection of God's attributes, and from this matrix God Created all possible universes very much like science views the Quantum World and the possible universes that are a part of this world. I still believe Creatio exnhilo is not supported in the Bible, where the Bible does indicate there was a Divine preexistence before our physical existence was created.

[seer]

Precisely, there was nothing, and then God gave being to matter and form. While God didn't fashion the universe out of Himself, He is the ultimate cause of its existence (even its ongoing existence from one moment to the next), and he was the efficient cause of it coming into existence out of nothing.

But from nothing comes nothing. I have a hard time wrapping my head around this.

[Leonhard]

I do not believe this, but why do you think it is impossible?

If a substance is perfectly simple, then you can't take a part of it and fashion something else out of it. Since God is simple and without parts, then God can't fashion anything out of Himself. It would also imply a change in God which is impossible as God is unmoved and timeless.

[Leonhard]

Then what did God create matter and energy from? Nothing?

Precisely, there was nothing, and then God gave being to matter and form. While God didn't fashion the universe out of Himself, He is the ultimate cause of its existence (even its ongoing existence from one moment to the next), and he was the efficient cause of it coming into existence out of nothing.

[shunyadragon]

So basically Plato's Cave.

There is always a way out, the light at the end of the tunnel.

[Kelp(p)]

Ah, but God did not create the universe out of his own substance. That would be impossible.

How do you figure? Even with an Eastern Orthodox-style Essence/Energy distinction?

[Kelp(p)]

Sort of. I would put it differently. Intelligence is the key here. Can God generate energy from His being that does not share all of His attributes? Here is an analogy: If you take my kidney to help save another person does that person become me - no. Even though he has part of me in him. What he lacks is my mind and personality. So can God do that - break off a part of Himself, or generate something out of Himself, that doesn't share His intelligence or personality?

If without God all things tend to fall apart and go back to chaos, then breaking off a part of Himself will cause the thing to get less and perfect, which is why God sends the Holy Spirit to "warm it back up," as it were.

[shunyadragon]

So I'm thinking that is at least a qualified 'yes'.

A qualified yes is ok,

[JohnnyP]

I think Kabbalah idea of Adam Kadmon the firstborn Heavenly Man is also interesting in that he seems to embody the idea of a first light and link between the infinite God and all creation, like a prism by which white light becomes visible light, with each color in the spectrum of creation made of God but not God itself, to use that analogy.

Some parallels to Jesus:

Source: KJV

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

© Copyright Original Source

[Adrift]

A parallel would be the human mind, and our brain. The human mind is a project of the human brain, but not a part of the human brain. Another analogy is the reflection in a mirror. The reflect is not the object, but reflects the attributes of the object.

What we perceive as God is not God but the attributes of God in Creation. The Laws of Nature are the attributes of God in the matrix where the Creation of all possible universes take place. All religions reveal progressively the attributes and laws of God.

So basically Plato's Cave.

[robrecht]

A parallel would be the human mind, and our brain. The human mind is a project of the human brain, but not a part of the human brain. Another analogy is the reflection in a mirror. The reflect is not the object, but reflects the attributes of the object.

What we perceive as God is not God but the attributes of God in Creation. The Laws of Nature are the attributes of God in the matrix where the Creation of all possible universes take place. All religions reveal progressively the attributes and laws of God.

So I'm thinking that is at least a qualified 'yes'.

[shunyadragon]

How exactly do you distinguish between the matrix/medium and God, if you do in fact make such a distinction? Do you, perhaps, say that the former can be known, at least in part, through scientific methods, whereas the latter cannot be known at all, neither by scientific nor by other methods, except perhaps by revealed texts of the Baha'i holy scriptures?

I could hardly provide exactly make a distinction because of fallible human perspective. A parallel would be the human mind, and our brain. The human mind is a projection of the human brain, but not a part of the human brain. Another analogy is the reflection in a mirror. The reflection is not the object, but reflects the attributes of the object. The human soul may be used as another analogy. The soul id distinct from our physical nature, but reflects the attributes of our nature and mind.

What we perceive as God is not God but the attributes of God in Creation. The Laws of Nature are the attributes of God in the matrix where the Creation of all possible universes take place. All religions reveal progressively the attributes and laws of God.

[robrecht]

I do not believe Creatio ex deo assumes 'all made of God.' It basically assumes there is a medium or matrix of existence that exists eternally with God from which all Creation or universes are Created from.

How exactly do you distinguish between the matrix/medium and God, if you do in fact make such a distinction? Do you, perhaps, say that the former can be known, at least in part, through scientific methods, whereas the latter cannot be known at all, neither by scientific nor by other methods, except perhaps by revealed texts of the Baha'i holy scriptures?

[JohnnyP]

Yes, but all this doesn't happen or these laws don't exist without God, apart from God.

That's the question, were all things created from absolutely nothing, or out of God somehow. If all things were created out of nothing and a kinotic God in the form of Laws and Forces of Nature, then we're talking ex deo.