Announcement

Collapse

Philosophy 201 Guidelines

Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Creatio ex deo

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    How/where do the laws of nature exist prior to the actual universe? I can see them existing in the mind of God, but not otherwise.
    The idea is that in Trinity, the Father, Word, and Spirit exist together eternally as God. The Spirit acts on laws of God's Word. In Genesis for example, Let there be light is the law of God's Word, God's Spirit is the force that makes it happen. In the NT, love God and each other is the instruction of God's Word, God's Spirit is the force that makes it happen. Etc.

    So:

    God's Spirit = Forces of Nature
    God's Word = Laws of Nature
    Creation = Laws and Forces of Nature Creating and within Creation telling it how to behave.

    So that way creation/matter is created out of nothing, as well as of a limited/kenotic God in the form of His Word and Spirit. Which is essentially a hypostatic union further illustrated by the incarnation of Christ.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
      The idea is that in Trinity, the Father, Word, and Spirit exist together eternally as God. The Spirit acts on laws of God's Word. In Genesis for example, Let there be light is the law of God's Word, God's Spirit is the force that makes it happen. In the NT, love God and each other is the instruction of God's Word, God's Spirit is the force that makes it happen. Etc.

      So:

      God's Spirit = Forces of Nature
      God's Word = Laws of Nature
      Creation = Laws and Forces of Nature Creating and within Creation telling it how to behave.

      So that way creation/matter is created out of nothing, as well as of a limited/kenotic God in the form of His Word and Spirit. Which is essentially a hypostatic union further illustrated by the incarnation of Christ.

      Yes, but all this doesn't happen or these laws don't exist without God, apart from God.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Yes, but all this doesn't happen or these laws don't exist without God, apart from God.
        That's the question, were all things created from absolutely nothing, or out of God somehow. If all things were created out of nothing and a kinotic God in the form of Laws and Forces of Nature, then we're talking ex deo.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          I do not believe Creatio ex deo assumes 'all made of God.' It basically assumes there is a medium or matrix of existence that exists eternally with God from which all Creation or universes are Created from.
          How exactly do you distinguish between the matrix/medium and God, if you do in fact make such a distinction? Do you, perhaps, say that the former can be known, at least in part, through scientific methods, whereas the latter cannot be known at all, neither by scientific nor by other methods, except perhaps by revealed texts of the Baha'i holy scriptures?
          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by robrecht View Post
            How exactly do you distinguish between the matrix/medium and God, if you do in fact make such a distinction? Do you, perhaps, say that the former can be known, at least in part, through scientific methods, whereas the latter cannot be known at all, neither by scientific nor by other methods, except perhaps by revealed texts of the Baha'i holy scriptures?
            I could hardly provide exactly make a distinction because of fallible human perspective. A parallel would be the human mind, and our brain. The human mind is a projection of the human brain, but not a part of the human brain. Another analogy is the reflection in a mirror. The reflection is not the object, but reflects the attributes of the object. The human soul may be used as another analogy. The soul id distinct from our physical nature, but reflects the attributes of our nature and mind.

            What we perceive as God is not God but the attributes of God in Creation. The Laws of Nature are the attributes of God in the matrix where the Creation of all possible universes take place. All religions reveal progressively the attributes and laws of God.
            Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-12-2014, 05:08 PM.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              A parallel would be the human mind, and our brain. The human mind is a project of the human brain, but not a part of the human brain. Another analogy is the reflection in a mirror. The reflect is not the object, but reflects the attributes of the object.

              What we perceive as God is not God but the attributes of God in Creation. The Laws of Nature are the attributes of God in the matrix where the Creation of all possible universes take place. All religions reveal progressively the attributes and laws of God.
              So I'm thinking that is at least a qualified 'yes'.
              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                A parallel would be the human mind, and our brain. The human mind is a project of the human brain, but not a part of the human brain. Another analogy is the reflection in a mirror. The reflect is not the object, but reflects the attributes of the object.

                What we perceive as God is not God but the attributes of God in Creation. The Laws of Nature are the attributes of God in the matrix where the Creation of all possible universes take place. All religions reveal progressively the attributes and laws of God.
                So basically Plato's Cave.

                Comment


                • #23
                  I think Kabbalah idea of Adam Kadmon the firstborn Heavenly Man is also interesting in that he seems to embody the idea of a first light and link between the infinite God and all creation, like a prism by which white light becomes visible light, with each color in the spectrum of creation made of God but not God itself, to use that analogy.

                  Some parallels to Jesus:

                  Source: KJV

                  John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

                  John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

                  Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

                  Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

                  Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

                  © Copyright Original Source

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                    So I'm thinking that is at least a qualified 'yes'.
                    A qualified yes is ok,
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Sort of. I would put it differently. Intelligence is the key here. Can God generate energy from His being that does not share all of His attributes? Here is an analogy: If you take my kidney to help save another person does that person become me - no. Even though he has part of me in him. What he lacks is my mind and personality. So can God do that - break off a part of Himself, or generate something out of Himself, that doesn't share His intelligence or personality?
                      If without God all things tend to fall apart and go back to chaos, then breaking off a part of Himself will cause the thing to get less and perfect, which is why God sends the Holy Spirit to "warm it back up," as it were.
                      O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

                      A neat video of dead languages!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                        Ah, but God did not create the universe out of his own substance. That would be impossible.
                        How do you figure? Even with an Eastern Orthodox-style Essence/Energy distinction?
                        O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

                        A neat video of dead languages!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                          So basically Plato's Cave.
                          There is always a way out, the light at the end of the tunnel.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Then what did God create matter and energy from? Nothing?
                            Precisely, there was nothing, and then God gave being to matter and form. While God didn't fashion the universe out of Himself, He is the ultimate cause of its existence (even its ongoing existence from one moment to the next), and he was the efficient cause of it coming into existence out of nothing.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              I do not believe this, but why do you think it is impossible?
                              If a substance is perfectly simple, then you can't take a part of it and fashion something else out of it. Since God is simple and without parts, then God can't fashion anything out of Himself. It would also imply a change in God which is impossible as God is unmoved and timeless.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                                Precisely, there was nothing, and then God gave being to matter and form. While God didn't fashion the universe out of Himself, He is the ultimate cause of its existence (even its ongoing existence from one moment to the next), and he was the efficient cause of it coming into existence out of nothing.

                                But from nothing comes nothing. I have a hard time wrapping my head around this.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by shunyadragon, 03-01-2024, 09:40 AM
                                161 responses
                                514 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Started by seer, 02-15-2024, 11:24 AM
                                88 responses
                                354 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Started by Diogenes, 01-22-2024, 07:37 PM
                                21 responses
                                133 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Working...
                                X