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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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  • #46
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    No, not according to the You Tube link. Which stated that reality doesn't exist until we observe it. My blind man model defeats that. We all know that the blind man, even if he did not perceive it, would hit the wall - not walk through it. Another real life example - I hike a lot, not that long ago I stepped into a hole - the reason I did is because I did not see it, if I had seen it, I would not have stepped in it. So that reality existed without my perception.
    The emphasis of your statement above is on your and our perception. Or all humans' perception, for that matter. Clearly not all reality is dependent on our perception, in the sense that it doesn't exist at all if we don't perceive it (as demonstrated by your examples). "We are only participants, not the architect[s]." It only infers that it is perceived beforehand by an architect mind, given the premises of Idealism.

    But that doesn't mean reality is completely independent of our perception. On the contrary, your perception is never exactly the same from moment to moment; it's dependent on your perspective. Size, shape, color, texture, etc--all "properties" of matter can be cited as different from one moment to the next. For instance, look at any object under a microscope--is it still the same color? The "properties" of matter can be demonstrated to affect and associate with each other, yes. But if you assert that the apple is really red, and the gray color of its molecules is false (or vice versa), then you throw all perception into doubt. How are we to tell false perception from true? Consistency? The apple's atoms are consistently gray under the microscope, and consistently red by eyesight alone. Mistrusting either resurrects the Matrix problem.

    QM's conclusions are based on the same principle, taken to a more drastic degree. It's not just partially dependent on our perceptions, it's completely dependent on our perceptions. If we don't see the phenomena, it literally doesn't exist. Like thoughts.

    Just because observation from one perspective--the macroscopic scale--is only partially dependent on human observation, doesn't make it nonsensical to assert that a different observation--the quantum scale--is completely dependent on human observation.

    Note that when I say "quantum scale," all I'm referring to is whether the scientists observed a wave or a particle function. The fact that the electrons went from point A to point B is the independent aspect of their perspective, the "structure" mentioned in the video.

    The video showed that the quantum scale is completely dependent on perception. "We are not just passive observers." The key is that it doesn't necessarily have to be human perception that all reality is dependent on. In fact, it can't be. Otherwise you have to assume that there's an infinite regression of human minds observing minds.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Volt View Post
      The emphasis of your statement above is on your and our perception. Or all humans' perception, for that matter. Clearly not all reality is dependent on our perception, in the sense that it doesn't exist at all if we don't perceive it (as demonstrated by your examples). "We are only participants, not the architect[s]." It only infers that it is perceived beforehand by an architect mind, given the premises of Idealism.

      But that doesn't mean reality is completely independent of our perception. On the contrary, your perception is never exactly the same from moment to moment; it's dependent on your perspective. Size, shape, color, texture, etc--all "properties" of matter can be cited as different from one moment to the next. For instance, look at any object under a microscope--is it still the same color? The "properties" of matter can be demonstrated to affect and associate with each other, yes. But if you assert that the apple is really red, and the gray color of its molecules is false (or vice versa), then you throw all perception into doubt. How are we to tell false perception from true? Consistency? The apple's atoms are consistently gray under the microscope, and consistently red by eyesight alone. Mistrusting either resurrects the Matrix problem.

      QM's conclusions are based on the same principle, taken to a more drastic degree. It's not just partially dependent on our perceptions, it's completely dependent on our perceptions. If we don't see the phenomena, it literally doesn't exist. Like thoughts.

      Just because observation from one perspective--the macroscopic scale--is only partially dependent on human observation, doesn't make it nonsensical to assert that a different observation--the quantum scale--is completely dependent on human observation.

      Note that when I say "quantum scale," all I'm referring to is whether the scientists observed a wave or a particle function. The fact that the electrons went from point A to point B is the independent aspect of their perspective, the "structure" mentioned in the video.

      The video showed that the quantum scale is completely dependent on perception. "We are not just passive observers." The key is that it doesn't necessarily have to be human perception that all reality is dependent on. In fact, it can't be. Otherwise you have to assume that there's an infinite regression of human minds observing minds.
      Ok, let me get this straight. The blind man hits the wall because God is perceiving the wall? Not because, he, the blind man is perceiving said wall - correct?
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Ok, let me get this straight. The blind man hits the wall because God is perceiving the wall? Not because, he, the blind man is perceiving said wall - correct?
        You are applying the copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics which has never sit well with the scientific community. The Copenhagen interpretation implies that we through our observations create reality. In other words the wave function collapses when an observation is made and so what is observed becomes the reality. This really doesn't make sense, which is why, i believe his name is Everett, came up with the many worlds theory or the multiverse theory which implies that the wave function never collapses it just evolves smoothly throughout the multiverse. In other words the infinite possibilities within the wave function all happen, but each happens in a different universe. You may fall down the stairs and break your arm in this universe, but the you in another universe walks safely to the bottom, while the you in another may slide down the banister etc etc. Or in other words, every possibility within the wave function that can happen does happen. There is no collapse due to observation.
        Last edited by JimL; 02-21-2014, 09:52 PM.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          Ok, let me get this straight. The blind man hits the wall because God is perceiving the wall? Not because, he, the blind man is perceiving said wall - correct?
          To just say "correct" would be an oversimplification. Let me explain a little more:

          God, the Universal Consciousness, whatever, isn't a separate observer from us that perceives everything before we do. Otherwise, the verification of QM's experiments wouldn't be possible because their result would be pre-determined (i.e. God either perceives a wave or a particle and the scientists can only record whichever God decides to see.)

          Reality exists as a wave function, so to speak--it's not particles, just possibilities (i.e. the structure of reality). As soon as you or I perceive it, it coalesces into particles, a discrete form, and forms a backlog of events to explain the particles' existence. This was demonstrated in the Delayed Quantum Eraser experiment from the video.

          God maintains the possibilities via consciousness, and observes our experience, structuring the possibilities we run into as particles, as reality.

          So to answer your question: The blind man creates the wall from those possibilities as soon as he perceives it (i.e. touches it.) Just like the scientists "create" particles from the wave function of their experiments in the video.


          Disclaimer: Because I'm not IP and not a professional physicist or philosopher, I'm grasping at terms here. Not sure if "possibilities" is an adequate layman's synonym for "wave function," much less Quantum superposition.

          Originally posted by JimL View Post
          You are applying the copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics which has never sit well with the scientific community. The Copenhagen interpretation implies that we through our observations create reality. In other words the wave function collapses when an observation is made and so what is observed becomes the reality. This really doesn't make sense, which is why, i believe his name is Everett, came up with the many worlds theory or the multiverse theory which implies that the wave function never collapses it just evolves smoothly throughout the multiverse.
          See the argument against the Multiverse theory at 10:15 in the video.
          Last edited by Volt; 02-21-2014, 09:50 PM.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Volt View Post
            To just say "correct" would be an oversimplification. Let me explain a little more:

            God, the Universal Consciousness, whatever, isn't a separate observer from us that perceives everything before we do. Otherwise, the verification of QM's experiments wouldn't be possible because their result would be pre-determined (i.e. God either perceives a wave or a particle and the scientists can only record whichever God decides to see.)

            Reality exists as a wave function, so to speak--it's not particles, just possibilities (i.e. the structure of reality). As soon as you or I perceive it, it coalesces into particles, a discrete form, and forms a backlog of events to explain the particles' existence. This was demonstrated in the Delayed Quantum Eraser experiment from the video.

            God maintains the possibilities via consciousness, and observes our experience, structuring the possibilities we run into as particles, as reality.

            So to answer your question: The blind man creates the wall from those possibilities as soon as he perceives it (i.e. touches it.) Just like the scientists "create" particles from the wave function of their experiments in the video.


            Disclaimer: Because I'm not IP and not a professional physicist or philosopher, I'm grasping at terms here. Not sure if "possibilities" is an adequate layman's synonym for "wave function," much less Quantum superposition.



            See the argument against the Multiverse theory at 10:15 in the video.
            What video?

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Volt View Post
              So to answer your question: The blind man creates the wall from those possibilities as soon as he perceives it (i.e. touches it.) Just like the scientists "create" particles from the wave function of their experiments in the video.
              I'm sorry Volt, this just doesn't make sense. If reality is at all dependent on our perception then the blind man does not perceive until after he has run into it. So the wall has to exist before the contact, because he only knows of its existence from the touch or hit in this case it is the physical contact that causes the preception. I did not perceive the hole or I would have not stepped in it.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by JimL View Post
                This really doesn't make sense, which is why, i believe his name is Everett, came up with the many worlds theory or the multiverse theory which implies that the wave function never collapses it just evolves smoothly throughout the multiverse. In other words the infinite possibilities within the wave function all happen, but each happens in a different universe. You may fall down the stairs and break your arm in this universe, but the you in another universe walks safely to the bottom, while the you in another may slide down the banister etc etc. Or in other words, every possibility within the wave function that can happen does happen. There is no collapse due to observation.
                And you think that believing in God is fantastic!? BTW - I don't hold to Copenhagen interpretation, to be honest I don't think we have a clue about most of the quantum world.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  I'm sorry Volt, this just doesn't make sense. If reality is at all dependent on our perception then the blind man does not perceive until after he has run into it. So the wall has to exist before the contact, because he only knows of its existence from the touch or hit in this case it is the physical contact that causes the preception. I did not perceive the hole or I would have not stepped in it.
                  The physical contact is the perception. There's no gap between running into the wall and perceiving it. For that matter, there's no gap between perception and any of our senses. If there is, you're suddenly dealing with Dualism.

                  That, perhaps, is what we're hung up on. Sight, smell, sound, etc, none of them exist until the moment they are perceived, and their existence beforehand is just potentiality. The consistency of that perception--like seeing a wall you didn't know was there before, and seeing it again tomorrow--just means that your perception is structured, limited by something else. Because you haven't seen it before doesn't mean that the perception isn't yours, that you're just a passive observer. That's the whole point of the QM discussed in the video; we have a hand in altering reality. The fascinating part of the Quantum Eraser experiment is that the scientists found a way to prove what the particles were before observation--a wave function--and that it would have remained in that state if they hadn't observed it. We have proof that perception alters reality in QM, and there's no reason to assume that this doesn't apply to the rest of reality.

                  By your language, I suspect you're presupposing Dualism of some sort? Correct me if I'm wrong. The common misconception is that there is something under these perceptions (i.e. an independent reality) that somehow sticks shape, weight, color and smell of an object together and causes our consistent perceptions of those properties.

                  What's more of a leap:

                  1. Saying that a universal mind is ordering our perceptions, or
                  2. That there is an underlying, inert substance ordering our perceptions that cannot be experienced in any way. ( )

                  With my knowledge that a) my mind exists, and b) perceptions directly interact in/with my mind, it seems to make more sense that only another mind would be capable of causing and organizing them.



                  Somehow I've come around to a fast and loose summary of Idealism. Quantum, feel free to say I should make a separate thread for this discussion if you think it's become a threadjacking from the OP.
                  Last edited by Volt; 02-22-2014, 12:22 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Volt View Post
                    The physical contact is the perception. There's no gap between running into the wall and perceiving it. For that matter, there's no gap between perception and any of our senses. If there is, you're suddenly dealing with Dualism.

                    That, perhaps, is what we're hung up on. Sight, smell, sound, etc, none of them exist until the moment they are perceived, and their existence beforehand is just potentiality. The consistency of that perception--like seeing a wall you didn't know was there before, and seeing it again tomorrow--just means that your perception is structured, limited by something else. Because you haven't seen it before doesn't mean that the perception isn't yours, that you're just a passive observer. That's the whole point of the QM discussed in the video; we have a hand in altering reality. The fascinating part of the Quantum Eraser experiment is that the scientists found a way to prove what the particles were before observation--a wave function--and that it would have remained in that state if they hadn't observed it. We have proof that perception alters reality in QM, and there's no reason to assume that this doesn't apply to the rest of reality.


                    Again Volt, why would the blind man perceive the wall in the first place if the wall was depended on his perception? He had no knowledge of it beforehand. I had no knowledge of the hole I fell in until after I stepped in it. Did we decide to perceive/invent the wall or hole to purposely hurt ourselves?
                    Last edited by seer; 02-22-2014, 06:23 AM.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Thanks for bearing with me on this when I miss your point, seer.

                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Again Volt, why would the blind man perceive the wall in the first place if the wall was depended on his perception? He had no knowledge of it beforehand. I had no knowledge of the hole I fell in until after I stepped in it. Did we decide to perceive/invent the wall or hole to purposely hurt ourselves?
                      In short, no, because he doesn't completely define the possibility of its existence. Referring back to the Delayed Quantum Eraser experiment in the video:

                      1. The wave function of the beam exists. Beforehand. As a wave function, it's just a potentiality, from what little I understand of QM.

                      2. As soon as the scientists observe it at the end of the experiment, the wave function becomes particles, both at the end of the experiment and retroactively through the experiment.

                      Applying this to the wall example:

                      1. The wall exists beforehand only as a potentiality. A wave function of matter.

                      2. As soon as the man touches the wall, it becomes discrete particles at that instant and retroactively in the past.

                      So in effect, you stepping into the hole causes its discrete existence beforehand, as odd as that sounds. It's just inference from the results of QM in experiments like the Quantum Eraser. There's no reason to believe that they don't hold true for the rest of the physical world.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Volt View Post
                        Applying this to the wall example:

                        1. The wall exists beforehand only as a potentiality. A wave function of matter.

                        2. As soon as the man touches the wall, it becomes discrete particles at that instant and retroactively in the past.

                        So in effect, you stepping into the hole causes its discrete existence beforehand, as odd as that sounds. It's just inference from the results of QM in experiments like the Quantum Eraser. There's no reason to believe that they don't hold true for the rest of the physical world.
                        Ok Volt, if the wall only exists as a potentiality then why on earth would the blind man's action or perception bring it into existence? He has no knowledge of a wall - there is nothing for him to touch only potentiality. There is no hole for me to fall in - I had no knowledge of it. So how could my perception bring it into reality?
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Ok Volt, if the wall only exists as a potentiality then why on earth would the blind man's action or perception bring it into existence? He has no knowledge of a wall - there is nothing for him to touch only potentiality. There is no hole for me to fall in - I had no knowledge of it. So how could my perception bring it into reality?
                          Now there's a good question. We might as well ask why a wave function only turns into particles in the Quantum Eraser experiment, and not anything else under the sun. This is delving more into the mechanics of QM (no pun intended) and not just final cause - result.

                          The short answer is: whatever organizes that potentiality into something coherent.

                          Consider your imagination, a daydream or a lucid dream. Those perceptions are no less real than our perceptions of physical reality. The only difference is that we know our dreams are wholly organized by our minds and nothing else. My dream-scape bends however I like because I literally did bring that perception into existence on my own, and therefore I govern it in all respects. The potentiality is organized by me!

                          Reality is set apart because its potentiality isn't pre-defined just by you, me, or even all of humanity. Ideas, physical matter, I don't care what you call it--everything we perceive is made up of the same substance; the only differentiation we can make is who or what controls it, and to what degree.

                          My point of all this rambling is that the potentiality in the example's case is pre-defined before our minds perceive it. A wall and not a hole is brought into existence at the blind man's touch because of that. There is an order imposed on that potentiality, otherwise physical laws wouldn't exist. To figure out why the wall became a wall and not a hole, we would need to know more about the origin of reality's order.

                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          There is no hole for me to fall in - I had no knowledge of it. So how could my perception bring it into reality?
                          The same way you bring perception of thoughts and daydreams into existence. If you figure out how your mind creates/alters a thought or image in your head, let me know.
                          Last edited by Volt; 02-22-2014, 07:26 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Volt View Post

                            Somehow I've come around to a fast and loose summary of Idealism. Quantum, feel free to say I should make a separate thread for this discussion if you think it's become a threadjacking from the OP.
                            This one's fine. For the meantime.
                            -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
                            Sir James Jeans

                            -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
                            Sir Isaac Newton

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Volt View Post
                              Now there's a good question. We might as well ask why a wave function only turns into particles in the Quantum Eraser experiment, and not anything else under the sun. This is delving more into the mechanics of QM (no pun intended) and not just final cause - result.

                              The short answer is: whatever organizes that potentiality into something coherent.

                              Consider your imagination, a daydream or a lucid dream. Those perceptions are no less real than our perceptions of physical reality. The only difference is that we know our dreams are wholly organized by our minds and nothing else. My dream-scape bends however I like because I literally did bring that perception into existence on my own, and therefore I govern it in all respects. The potentiality is organized by me!

                              Reality is set apart because its potentiality isn't pre-defined just by you, me, or even all of humanity. Ideas, physical matter, I don't care what you call it--everything we perceive is made up of the same substance; the only differentiation we can make is who or what controls it, and to what degree.

                              My point of all this rambling is that the potentiality in the example's case is pre-defined before our minds perceive it. A wall and not a hole is brought into existence at the blind man's touch because of that. There is an order imposed on that potentiality, otherwise physical laws wouldn't exist. To figure out why the wall became a wall and not a hole, we would need to know more about the origin of reality's order.



                              The same way you bring perception of thoughts and daydreams into existence. If you figure out how your mind creates/alters a thought or image in your head, let me know.
                              I don't believe that there are very many physicists who hold to the copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. Its conclusion is that there is no external reality in its own right, that life is but a dream in the sense that reality is all in the subjects head. In other words, unless someone is observing the moon, the moon doesn't exist. Do you not believe in the external reality of the moon?

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Volt View Post
                                Now there's a good question. We might as well ask why a wave function only turns into particles in the Quantum Eraser experiment, and not anything else under the sun. This is delving more into the mechanics of QM (no pun intended) and not just final cause - result.

                                The short answer is: whatever organizes that potentiality into something coherent.

                                Consider your imagination, a daydream or a lucid dream. Those perceptions are no less real than our perceptions of physical reality. The only difference is that we know our dreams are wholly organized by our minds and nothing else. My dream-scape bends however I like because I literally did bring that perception into existence on my own, and therefore I govern it in all respects. The potentiality is organized by me!

                                Reality is set apart because its potentiality isn't pre-defined just by you, me, or even all of humanity. Ideas, physical matter, I don't care what you call it--everything we perceive is made up of the same substance; the only differentiation we can make is who or what controls it, and to what degree.

                                My point of all this rambling is that the potentiality in the example's case is pre-defined before our minds perceive it. A wall and not a hole is brought into existence at the blind man's touch because of that. There is an order imposed on that potentiality, otherwise physical laws wouldn't exist. To figure out why the wall became a wall and not a hole, we would need to know more about the origin of reality's order.



                                The same way you bring perception of thoughts and daydreams into existence. If you figure out how your mind creates/alters a thought or image in your head, let me know.

                                Ok, this is strange because it goes to motive. On some level the blind man must have wanted to walk into a wall and hurt himself, just like I wanted to fall into a hole and twist me ankle. That doesn't seem right - why wouldn't the blind man rather walk into a flower garden - our me perceive a level path? Why can't I perceive a million dollars on the table in front of me, why can't you? Here is another test - I reach into my pocket and pull something out - at that moment you do not know what I have - when I open my hand will we both see the same thing? There would literally be dozens of possibilities.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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