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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Science and the arguments for/against the existence of God. Cosmology and Cosmogony

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  • #31
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    I never said that nature self creates. That is your line from philosophical naturalism. God comes into the picture, because God Creates. In my view the nature of our physical existence and Natural Law simply reflects God's natural methods of Creation
    So creation can be used as an argument for God's existence since creation would not exist apart from God's creative act.
    Last edited by seer; 08-05-2014, 07:35 AM.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      So creation can be used as an argument for God's existence since creation would not exist apart from God's creative act.
      Present the argument you would propose based on God's Creation. What presented above is very. very circular, and does not appear to be a real argument..
      Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-05-2014, 08:18 PM.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        I never said that nature self creates. That is your line from philosophical naturalism. God comes into the picture, because God Creates. In my view the nature of our physical existence and Natural Law simply reflects God's natural methods of Creation.
        But again shunya, we are talking two different things. I'm talking about creation of the natural world itself, not about creation within the natural world. You seem to keep focusing on the latter. My question was specific: From your perspective, is the natural world itself eternal or is it temporal and created ex nihilo. I think that what you are implying is that the natural world is itself eternal but the laws upon which it operates are created by a distinct and eternal God. Do I have that right? Thats why I asked "where does God enter the picture" from your perspective? Did he create the natural world ex nihilo or did he just engineer that which already existed?

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by JimL View Post
          But again shunya, we are talking two different things. I'm talking about creation of the natural world itself, not about creation within the natural world. You seem to keep focusing on the latter. My question was specific: From your perspective, is the natural world itself eternal or is it temporal and created ex nihilo. I think that what you are implying is that the natural world is itself eternal but the laws upon which it operates are created by a distinct and eternal God. Do I have that right? That's why I asked "where does God enter the picture" from your perspective? Did he create the natural world ex nihilo or did he just engineer that which already existed?
          Your again asking specific question about my cosmogony and that of the Baha'i Faith. The answer will be in my thread in Comparative Religions.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            Your again asking specific question about my cosmogony and that of the Baha'i Faith. The answer will be in my thread in Comparative Religions.
            I'm not religious Shunya, so I can not post in comparative religions. Not sure why you will not answer here, it is a relatively simple question, requiring a relatively simple answer. I'm just trying to understand your point of view, but the choice not to answer is yours to make.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by JimL View Post
              I'm not religious Shunya, so I can not post in comparative religions. Not sure why you will not answer here, it is a relatively simple question, requiring a relatively simple answer. I'm just trying to understand your point of view, but the choice not to answer is yours to make.
              It is still off topic, but I forgot you cannot post in Comparative Religions. For you:

              God and the eternal Matrix from which all universes arise coexist. The natural world is eternal as the Matrix of the 'First Great Cause.' No engineers nor ex nihilo.


              Source:

              http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/o/BNE/bne-163.html


              Bahá’u’lláh teaches that the universe is without beginning in time. It is a perpetual emanation from the Great First Cause. The Creator always had His creation and always will have. Worlds and systems may come and go, but the [greater cosmos] universe remains. All things that undergo composition, in time undergo decomposition, but the component elements remain. The creation of a world, a daisy or a human body is not “making something out of nothing”; it is rather a bringing together of elements which before were scattered, a making visible of something which before was hidden. By and by the elements will again be scattered, the form will disappear, but nothing is really lost or annihilated; ever new combinations and forms arise from the ruins of the old. Bahá’u’lláh confirms the scientists who claim, not six thousand, but millions and billions of years for the history of the earth’s creation. The evolution theory does not deny creative power. It only tries to describe the method of its manifestation; and the wonderful story of the material universe which the astronomer, the geologist, the physicist and the biologist are gradually unfolding to our gaze is, rightly appreciated, far more capable of evoking the deepest reverence and worship than the crude and bald account of creation given in the Hebrew Scriptures.

              © Copyright Original Source



              This view roughly parallels the views of the current cosmology. This cosmogony is older then the contemporary cosmology.
              Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-06-2014, 06:57 AM.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                Present the argument you would propose based on God's Creation. What presented above is very. very circular, and does not appear to be a real argument..
                What are you talking about? Didn't you just say that creation depends on God? That it exists because of God? If that is the case, creation is evidence for God's existence since creation does not exist under its own power, it exists as an act of God. If creation is an emanation from God (eternal or not) then matter and energy do not exist on their own, they depend fully on God.
                Last edited by seer; 08-06-2014, 08:17 AM.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  What are you talking about? Didn't you just say that creation depends on God? That it exists because of God? If that is the case, creation is evidence for God's existence since creation does not exist under its own power, it exists as an act of God. If creation is an emanation from God (eternal or not) then matter and energy do not exist on their own, they depend fully on God.
                  Shuny’s religious beliefs are not properly part of a rational proof for the existence of God.
                  βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                  ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                  אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                    Shuny’s religious beliefs are not properly part of a rational proof for the existence of God.
                    But how does he escape the fact that without God creation would not exist. That creation is fully depended on God's activity. Matter and energy are not self-existent.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      But how does he escape the fact that without God creation would not exist. That creation is fully depended on God's activity. Matter and energy are not self-existent.
                      He does not escape this. He jus does not think this can be proven rationally to those who do not share his religious beliefs or metaphysics.
                      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                        He does not escape this. He just does not think this can be proven rationally to those who do not share his religious beliefs or metaphysics.
                        I do not believe it can be proven rationally nor logically regardless of whether 'they' or anyone share my beliefs nor metaphysics. I do not base my beliefs on a logical nor rational 'proof' of anything.

                        The reasons I believe are found in my thread in Comparative Religions.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                          Shuny’s religious beliefs are not properly part of a rational proof for the existence of God.
                          Correct.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            It is still off topic, but I forgot you cannot post in Comparative Religions. For you:

                            God and the eternal Matrix from which all universes arise coexist. The natural world is eternal as the Matrix of the 'First Great Cause.' No engineers nor ex nihilo.


                            Source:

                            http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/o/BNE/bne-163.html


                            Bahá’u’lláh teaches that the universe is without beginning in time. It is a perpetual emanation from the Great First Cause. The Creator always had His creation and always will have. Worlds and systems may come and go, but the [greater cosmos] universe remains. All things that undergo composition, in time undergo decomposition, but the component elements remain. The creation of a world, a daisy or a human body is not “making something out of nothing”; it is rather a bringing together of elements which before were scattered, a making visible of something which before was hidden. By and by the elements will again be scattered, the form will disappear, but nothing is really lost or annihilated; ever new combinations and forms arise from the ruins of the old. Bahá’u’lláh confirms the scientists who claim, not six thousand, but millions and billions of years for the history of the earth’s creation. The evolution theory does not deny creative power. It only tries to describe the method of its manifestation; and the wonderful story of the material universe which the astronomer, the geologist, the physicist and the biologist are gradually unfolding to our gaze is, rightly appreciated, far more capable of evoking the deepest reverence and worship than the crude and bald account of creation given in the Hebrew Scriptures.

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            This view roughly parallels the views of the current cosmology. This cosmogony is older then the contemporary cosmology.
                            Okay, thank you for the explanation shunya. Now when you say that the two co-exist, i.e. that God and the Natural world co-exist from eternity, do you mean to say that they are not only both eternal, but that they are also distinct the one from the other? Are they composed of one and the same substance or in what sense do you distinguish between the one from the other? Is it just a logical distinction or is there a real dichotomy between the two? Emanation doesn't seem to me to have any logical meaning when speaking of "a first great cause" if the two are co-eternal, i.e. if both cause and effect are eternal, because if they are co-eternal they are just different aspects of one and the same eternal entity, no?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              Okay, thank you for the explanation shunya. Now when you say that the two co-exist, i.e. that God and the Natural world co-exist from eternity, do you mean to say that they are not only both eternal, but that they are also distinct the one from the other? Are they composed of one and the same substance or in what sense do you distinguish between the one from the other? Is it just a logical distinction or is there a real dichotomy between the two? Emanation doesn't seem to me to have any logical meaning when speaking of "a first great cause" if the two are co-eternal, i.e. if both cause and effect are eternal, because if they are co-eternal they are just different aspects of one and the same eternal entity, no?
                              I think it would be something like your reflection in the mirror. You are the first cause, you cause the reflection. Both exist for eternity but the reflection is totally dependent on you. You could logically exist without the reflection, but the reflection could not logically exist without you.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                Okay, thank you for the explanation shunya. Now when you say that the two co-exist, i.e. that God and the Natural world co-exist from eternity, do you mean to say that they are not only both eternal, but that they are also distinct the one from the other?
                                They are distinct from one another.

                                Are they composed of one and the same substance or in what sense do you distinguish between the one from the other?
                                God is the 'Source' and the Cause, and the Creation reflects the attributes of God, the greater cosmos and the universes.

                                Is it just a logical distinction or is there a real dichotomy between the two? Emanation doesn't seem to me to have any logical meaning when speaking of "a first great cause" if the two are co-eternal, i.e.
                                A perpetual emanation best describes the universes emanating from the Matrix (greater Cosmos) and the constant "All things that undergo composition, in time undergo decomposition, but the component elements remain. The creation of a world, a daisy or a human body is not “making something out of nothing”; it is rather a bringing together of elements which before were scattered, a making visible of something which before was hidden. By and by the elements will again be scattered, the form will disappear, but nothing is really lost or annihilated; ever new combinations and forms arise from the ruins of the old."

                                The cyclic decomposition and re-composition occurs naturally through out our universe at all levels, for example stars are the result of the re-composition of older stars. In this view new universes would be the re-combination of older universes that decomposed into the greater cosmos.



                                if both cause and effect are eternal, because if they are co-eternal they are just different aspects of one and the same eternal entity, no?
                                No. both are not aspects of the same entity. An analogy is God's greater cosmos is like God's shadow. As long as God exists eternally the shadow exists eternally.
                                Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-06-2014, 08:37 PM.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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