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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

    Your making a claim without evidence. Again . . . Stoic's posts are informative on this issue.
    I just quoted Vilenkin “All the evidence we have says that the universe had a beginning.”

    In other words there is no evidence for an eternal physical past. I know your religion requires that, but you have zero evidence.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post

      I just quoted Vilenkin “All the evidence we have says that the universe had a beginning.”

      In other words there is no evidence for an eternal physical past. I know your religion requires that, but you have zero evidence.
      Just quoting Vilenkin does not represent evidence, and he also proposes a multiverse where universes form in a Quantum Vacuum based on Quantum Mechanics.

      Again . . . please present the evidence that supports your claim. I only support the 'possibility' of an eternal infinite physical existence. Vilenkin does not make the claim that our physical existence is finite and has a beginning.


      My religion is a different issue concerning my belief, and is not the issue here. I do not make the extreme claim as you without evidence.

      You have failed to address the issue that other cosmologists disagree with Vilenkin and Guth.
      Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-25-2021, 12:01 PM.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post

        I just quoted Vilenkin “All the evidence we have says that the universe had a beginning.”

        In other words there is no evidence for an eternal physical past. I know your religion requires that, but you have zero evidence.
        Dude, stop arguing with this moron, honestly. I have an idea. Just do what I do and see if he goes away already, lol.
        Many and painful are the researches sometimes necessary to be made, for settling points of [this] kind. Pertness and ignorance may ask a question in three lines, which it will cost learning and ingenuity thirty pages to answer. When this is done, the same question shall be triumphantly asked again the next year, as if nothing had ever been written upon the subject.
        George Horne

        Comment


        • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

          Just quoting Vilenkin does not represent evidence, and he also proposes a multiverse where universes form in a Quantum Vacuum based on Quantum Mechanics.

          Again . . . please present the evidence that supports your claim. I only support the 'possibility' of an eternal infinite physical existence. Vilenkin does not make the claim that our physical existence is finite and has a beginning.


          My religion is a different issue concerning my belief, and is not the issue here. I do not make the extreme claim as you without evidence.

          You have failed to address the issue that other cosmologists disagree with Vilenkin and Guth.
          None of this evidence of your claim. Until you present evidence, you can take a hike.

          Wow, the Shunya school of argumentation is fun!

          You have failed to address all the issues everyone has brought ever about anything.
          Last edited by mattbballman31; 11-28-2021, 06:58 PM.
          Many and painful are the researches sometimes necessary to be made, for settling points of [this] kind. Pertness and ignorance may ask a question in three lines, which it will cost learning and ingenuity thirty pages to answer. When this is done, the same question shall be triumphantly asked again the next year, as if nothing had ever been written upon the subject.
          George Horne

          Comment


          • You can use the Shunya school of argumentation to pretty much do anything. It's awesome!

            Hey, Einstein! What's up! You hear that the predictions of SR were vindicated by a solar eclipse?

            Shunya: Vindicated?? None of this is evidence of your claim, matt! Or, physical existence, something something.
            Many and painful are the researches sometimes necessary to be made, for settling points of [this] kind. Pertness and ignorance may ask a question in three lines, which it will cost learning and ingenuity thirty pages to answer. When this is done, the same question shall be triumphantly asked again the next year, as if nothing had ever been written upon the subject.
            George Horne

            Comment


            • Originally posted by mattbballman31 View Post
              You can use the Shunya school of argumentation to pretty much do anything. It's awesome!

              Hey, Einstein! What's up! You hear that the predictions of SR were vindicated by a solar eclipse?

              Shunya: Vindicated?? None of this is evidence of your claim, matt! Or, physical existence, something something.
              No just science as science is, and it is unethical to use science to justify a religious agenda,

              Though as usual nothing but a personal attack, no scientific references ro support your assertions.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post

                I just quoted Vilenkin “All the evidence we have says that the universe had a beginning.”
                It's not as cut 'n dried as you like to think..Vilenkin also acknowledges to possibility of an infinite multiverse. And Roger Penrose, the 2020 Nobel Prize winner in physics, claims the universe goes through cycles of death and rebirth. According to him, there have been multiple Big Bangs, with more on the way.

                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                  It's not as cut 'n dried as you like to think..Vilenkin also acknowledges to possibility of an infinite multiverse. And Roger Penrose, the 2020 Nobel Prize winner in physics, claims the universe goes through cycles of death and rebirth. According to him, there have been multiple Big Bangs, with more on the way.
                  This goes with the problem of seer's argument fails, because all cosmologists consider our particular universe and all possible universes to have beginnings in a Quantum Vacuum, or cyclic of as individual unveses in a multiverse or not if cyclic. Velinkin and Guth does propose a theoretical beginning for a multiverse. I know of no cosmologist or physicist that proposes and absolute beginning of our universe.

                  There is a distinct misunderstanding of what the Quantum Vacuum. sometimes awkwardly described as 'Quantum Nothing' is based on Quantum Mechanics. It is not equivalent to the philosophical 'absolute nothing.' The claim of a theological/philosophical 'absolute nothing' beginning of our universe or the multiverse cannot be falsified as a hypothesis based on scientific methods. which require objective verifiable evidence.
                  Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-29-2021, 11:28 PM.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                    It's not as cut 'n dried as you like to think..Vilenkin also acknowledges to possibility of an infinite multiverse. And Roger Penrose, the 2020 Nobel Prize winner in physics, claims the universe goes through cycles of death and rebirth. According to him, there have been multiple Big Bangs, with more on the way.
                    You are wrong Tass, according to Vilenkin the multiverse can not be past eternal - can not be infinite into the past. And he also shots down the cyclical idea.

                    Vilenkin discussed three models for an eternal universe in his presentation, describing why each cannot deliver on what it promises. The first is Alan Guth’s eternal inflation model which proposes eternally inflating bubble universes within a multiverse that stretches both forward and backward in time. In 2003 Vilenkin and Guth discovered that the math for this model will not work because it violates the Hubble constant. Speaking of the inflationary multiverse, Vilenkin said “it can’t possibly be eternal in the past,” and that “there must be some kind of boundary.”

                    The second cosmological model was the cyclical model, which proposes that the universe goes through an eternal series of contractions and expansions – our Big Bang being the latest contraction in an eternal series. Vilenkin shows that this model cannot extend infinitely into the past either because disorder would accumulate with each cycle. If the universe has been going through this process eternally, we should find ourselves in a universe that is completely disordered and dead. We do not, hence a cyclical universe cannot extend infinitely into the past.

                    https://thinkingtobelieve.com/2012/0...d-a-beginning/
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                      This goes with the problem of seer's argument fails, because all cosmologists consider our particular universe and all possible universes to have beginnings in a Quantum Vacuum, or cyclic of as individual unveses in a multiverse or not if cyclic. Velinkin and Guth does propose a theoretical beginning for a multiverse. I know of no cosmologist or physicist that proposes and absolute beginning of our universe.
                      And there is no evidence of anything existing before this universe. Again Vilenkin “All the evidence we have says that the universe had a beginning.” I know that doesn't fit with your religion, so....

                      There is a distinct misunderstanding of what the Quantum Vacuum. sometimes awkwardly described as 'Quantum Nothing' is based on Quantum Mechanics. It is not equivalent to the philosophical 'absolute nothing.' The claim of a theological/philosophical 'absolute nothing' beginning of our universe or the multiverse cannot be falsified as a hypothesis based on scientific methods. which require objective verifiable evidence.
                      Actually it is an absolute nothing according to Vilenkin, no matter, no time, no space, NO CAUSE - nothing except the laws of physics...
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post

                        And there is no evidence of anything existing before this universe. Again Vilenkin “All the evidence we have says that the universe had a beginning.” I know that doesn't fit with your religion, so....



                        Actually it is an absolute nothing according to Vilenkin, no matter, no time, no space, NO CAUSE - nothing except the laws of physics...
                        False. Vilenkin, Guth and virtually all cosmologists and physicists define the the 'nothing of physics' as the Quantum Vacuum, as previously defined and described in previous posts as the 'something' with Quantum Gravity that Vilenkin and Guth described in their theory that Universes originate in the multiverse. Energy exists in the Quantum Vacuum at the lowest possible level, but yes no particles nor space/time, but through Quantum Gravity and Quantum fluctuations particles do arise from the Quantum Vacuum.

                        Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_vacuum_state



                        In quantum field theory, the quantum vacuum state (also called the quantum vacuum or vacuum state) is the quantum state with the lowest possible energy. Generally, it contains no physical particles. The word zero-point field is sometimes used as a synonym for the vacuum state of a quantized field which is completely individual.

                        According to present-day understanding of what is called the vacuum state or the quantum vacuum, it is "by no means a simple empty space".[1][2] According to quantum mechanics, the vacuum state is not truly empty but instead contains fleeting electromagnetic waves and particles that pop into and out of the quantum field.[3][4][5]

                        The QED vacuum of quantum electrodynamics (or QED) was the first vacuum of quantum field theory to be developed. QED originated in the 1930s, and in the late 1940s and early 1950s it was reformulated by Feynman, Tomonaga, and Schwinger, who jointly received the Nobel prize for this work in 1965.[6] Today the electromagnetic interactions and the weak interactions are unified (at very high energies only) in the theory of the electroweak interaction.

                        The Standard Model is a generalization of the QED work to include all the known elementary particles and their interactions (except gravity). Quantum chromodynamics (or QCD) is the portion of the Standard Model that deals with strong interactions, and QCD vacuum is the vacuum of quantum chromodynamics. It is the object of study in the Large Hadron Collider and the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider, and is related to the so-called vacuum structure of strong interactions

                        © Copyright Original Source



                        Time exists in the Quantum Vacuum as 'momentary' (no time arrow) Quantum time measured in Quanta (Plank time), but not the space/time of the macro space/time universe.


                        Source: http://www.exactlywhatistime.com/physics-of-time/quantum-time/


                        Quanta


                        One of the implications of quantum mechanics is that certain aspects and properties of the universe are quantized, i.e. they are composed of discrete, indivisible packets or quanta. For instance, the electrons orbiting an atom are found in specific fixed orbits and do not slide nearer or further from the nucleus as their energy levels change, but jump from one discrete quantum state to another. Even light, which we know to be a type of electromagnetic radiation which moves in waves, is also composed of quanta or particles of light called photons, so that light has aspects of both waves AND particles, and sometimes it behaves like a wave and sometimes it behaved like a particle (wave-particle duality).

                        An obvious question, then, would be: is time divided up into discrete quanta? According to quantum mechanics, the answer appears to be “no”, and time appears to be in fact smooth and continuous (contrary to common belief, not everything in quantum theory is quantized). Tests have been carried out using sophisticated timing equipment and pulsating laser beams to observe chemical changes taking place at very small fractions of a second (down to a femtosecond, or 10−15 seconds) and at that level time certainly appears to be smooth and continuous. However, if time actually is quantized, it is likely to be at the level of Planck time (about 10-43 seconds), the smallest possible length of time according to theoretical physics, and probably forever beyond our practical measurement abilities.

                        It should be noted that our current knowledge of physics remains incomplete, and, according to some theories that look to combine quantum mechanics and gravity into a single “theory of everything” (often referred to as quantum gravity – see below), there is a possibility that time could in fact be quantized. A hypothetical chronon unit for a proposed discrete quantum of timehas been proposed, although it is not clear just how long a chronon should be.

                        © Copyright Original Source





                        Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-30-2021, 09:37 AM.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                          False. Vilenkin, Guth and virtually all cosmologists and physicists define the the 'nothing of physics' as the Quantum Vacuum, as previously defined and described in previous posts as the 'something' with Quantum Gravity that Vilenkin and Guth described in their theory that Universes originate in the multiverse. Energy exists in the Quantum Vacuum at the lowest possible level, but yes no particles nor space/time, but through Quantum Gravity and Quantum fluctuations particles do arise from the Quantum Vacuum.
                          Either you have no idea what you are saying Shuny, or you are being dishonest. First, even if the multiverse did exist, it CAN NOT be eternal in to the past (Vilenkin's words not mine). And when Vilenkin speaks of the universe coming into existence from nothing there was NO preexisting quantum state - he never says there was a preexisting quantum state. There was NO CAUSE. If there was a preexisting quantum state that would have been a CAUSE. Never mind the fact that there was no preexisting space - so where exactly did this preexisting quantum vacuum exist?

                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post

                            Either you have no idea what you are saying Shuny, or you are being dishonest. First, even if the multiverse did exist, it CAN NOT be eternal in to the past (Vilenkin's words not mine). And when Vilenkin speaks of the universe coming into existence from nothing there was NO preexisting quantum state - he never says there was a preexisting quantum state. There was NO CAUSE. If there was a preexisting quantum state that would have been a CAUSE. Never mind the fact that there was no preexisting space - so where exactly did this preexisting quantum vacuum exist?

                            Vilenkin never said nor proposed that our universe cannot be past peresent.


                            His theory only proposed a beginning of the multiverse. Vilenkin an Guth never presented any objective verifiable evidence that the the multiverse CANNOT be past eternal.


                            Still waiting for you to present the objective verifiable evidence that our universe or multiverse CANNOT be past eternal


                            You have not acknowledged that other cosmologists disagree with Vilenkin and Guth. You do not believe the multiverse exists.


                            Please respond to post #281.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post


                              Vilenkin never said nor proposed that our universe cannot be past peresent.


                              His theory only proposed a beginning of the multiverse. Vilenkin an Guth never presented any objective verifiable evidence that the the multiverse CANNOT be past eternal.
                              Of course he did!

                              In 2003 Vilenkin and Guth discovered that the math for this model will not work because it violates the Hubble constant. Speaking of the inflationary multiverse, Vilenkin said “it can’t possibly be eternal in the past,” and that “there must be some kind of boundary.”
                              Unless you have evidence supporting your religious belief that matter and energy are past eternal you have no argument.


                              Still waiting for you to present the objective verifiable evidence that our universe or multiverse CANNOT be past eternal
                              Now you are just being silly, again. I can't present objective verifiable evidence that unicorns don't exist either. So?

                              You have not acknowledged that other cosmologists disagree with Vilenkin and Guth. You do not believe the multiverse exists.
                              So? Where is their objective verifiable evidence that matter and energy are past eternal?

                              Please respond to post #281.
                              And what does that post have to do with whether a preexisting quantum vacuum gave rise to this or any universe? Where is the objective verifiable evidence that that was the case?
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post

                                Of course he did!



                                Unless you have evidence supporting your religious belief that matter and energy are past eternal you have no argument.
                                There is no objective verifiable evidence for either a finite and temporal physical existence nor an infinite and eternal physical existence. There is no argument for either case.




                                Now you are just being silly, again. I can't present objective verifiable evidence that unicorns don't exist either. So?
                                I amnot asking about unicorns. I am asking about your claim that the past CANNOT be past eternal. There is no evidence for this claim.


                                So? Where is their objective verifiable evidence that matter and energy are past eternal?
                                There is not objective verifiable evidence for either claim, and I do not claim there is.



                                And what does that post have to do with whether a preexisting quantum vacuum gave rise to this or any universe? Where is the objective verifiable evidence that that was the case?

                                It was in response to post #280.

                                Your claim; "Actually it is an absolute nothing according to Vilenkin, no matter, no time, no space, NO CAUSE - nothing except the laws of physics."
                                Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-30-2021, 04:12 PM.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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