Originally posted by seer
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Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Infinity and Kalam
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Originally posted by Stoic View Post
A scientific justification isn't needed for pure speculation.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Consider a ball in space, naturally, it would evoke the intuition as to the origins of the ball, it's composition, who made it, how, and why. The ball possesses properties. It has mass and shape, color, texture, etc.
Space on the other hand, the space that we just encountered the ball in, is property-less. It does not evoke any logic or any intuition as to where it came from. One can use an ontological argument as to the origins of things, but not for space.
Matter has properties, yes. However, I cannot name a property of space. Because it has no properties, it doesn't evoke the same dissonance when I say that it is eternal and self existent and uncreated, as it does when someone says matter is eternal and self existent.
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Ha! I'm not just rambling crazy thoughts! It would appear someone has already written on the subject:
Abstract
Since Vacuity and Imaginary Space or Space itself is Nothingness, for the latter is the negation of one condition and the affirmation of another (as was shown in the preceding Chapter), it follows that Vacuity or Imaginary Space or Space itself is one of the two things that exist, either the created or the uncreated. There is no third. The fact that Vacuity or Imaginary Space or Space itself are created from Nothingness is stated by Jacques du Bois, a Leyden churchman who wrote on page 39 of his Dialogus Theologicus Astronomicus (in a passage in which he contradicts Galileo, Philip Lansberg, and others who hold that the sun is in the center of the world and that the earth revolves around it); “He who denies the existence of Vacuity above the distant heavens contradicts the infinity of the Divine Essence; for if the skies of the heavens do not encompass God, as Solomon holds in Kings I, Chapter 8, 27, then there is some Place beyond them wherein this Divine Essence abides which cannot be contained by any boundaries. We usually call this Place, Vacuity, because it contains no body. Accordingly before the creation of the world, God was present everywhere and extended infinitely in that boundless abyss which could not be filled by any finite body like the uppermost Heaven, no matter how great it might be.
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10...-011-2010-4_43
It would appear that the assertion that infinite space is uncreated would have theological implications, and not so much physical ones. e.g. If space is eternal and uncreated, then that would diminish the sovereignty of God.
Although, I don't see how that would impact anything. the doctrine of ex Nihilo would remain intact. God could still create out of nothing the universe even if space was co-eternal with God.
Space=Nothingness Agree or Disagree?
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Originally posted by Machinist View PostIt would appear that the assertion that infinite space is uncreated would have theological implications, and not so much physical ones. e.g. If space is eternal and uncreated, then that would diminish the sovereignty of God.
BTW if anyone is interested I did e-mail Vileknin concerning our discussion, and he actually got back to me. He pretty much repeated what we have quoted in this thread.
Last edited by seer; 11-23-2021, 09:36 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View Post
If infinite empty space did exist I'm not sure how that would undermine the sovereignty of God since it wouldn't really be anything. It is nothingness...
BTW if anyone is interested I did e-mail Vileknin concerning our discussion, and he actually got back to me. He pretty much repeated what we have quoted in this thread.
Wow, you actually communicated with this guy?!
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Originally posted by Machinist View Post
BTW if anyone is interested I did e-mail Vileknin concerning our discussion, and he actually got back to me. He pretty much repeated what we have quoted in this thread.
Wow, you actually communicated with this guy?!
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View Post
How would the laws of quantum mechanics exist apart from a mind? They are not physical things. Another universe? Possible - but that would require a scientific justification, since it is material.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by seer View Post
You would think that such a theory would be open to a scientific explanation.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
The scientific justification is that Quantum Mechanics and the Quantum Vacuum like all of nature follow a consistent predictable behavior, patterns and nature confirmed by Methodological Naturalism without contradictions following consistent Natural Laws and process. As 'Vilenkkin concluded science has an adequate explanation for the origins and nature of our physical existence There is absolutely no evidence of a 'cause' beyond the consistent predictability based on Natural Laws. It is possible that Natural Laws and our physical existence is eternal and infinity, and it is possible that they are temporal and finite. There is no 'objective verifiable evidence\ to make an objective determination either way.. 'Arguing from Ignorance' one way or another is not an honest argument.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
Not possible unless there is 'objective verifiable evidence' for the existence of a 'mind' beyond our physical existence. Science would be open IF there was 'objective verifiable evidence ' to support this 'subjective' theological claim.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View Post
You act like science is the only way to discover truisms...
Your religion teaches that God created this universe and it reflects His attributes. That is either fact or it is not - no matter what science says...
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
No, science cannot discover truisms(?), whatever they are. Science can only falsify theories and hypothesis based on objective verifiable physical evidence.
True, but you asked about science, and not my beliefs.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View Post
No Vilenkkin, says 1. we may never know what caused the universe, so no we don't have an adequate explanation. And 2. his model (not the inflationary model) has the universe coming into being WITHOUT A CAUSE. And again, if you think that matter and energy are past eternal it is on you to show it, I can't prove that negative any more than I could prove that unicorns don't exist. What we actually DO know is that this universe is finite.
No, posting again Vilenkins own words:
From Vilenkin
;
Note: Vilenkin's reference to 'nothing' refers to 'Quantum nothing' and not the Theological philosophical 'absolute nothing.' Vilenkin refers to the beginning of the universe in terms of Quantum Mechanics..
Conclusion, you cannot use science to justify the Theological claim of a physical existence beginning from absolute nothing.
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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