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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Infinity and Kalam

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  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

    He said so himself and you quoted him: “he believes that the universe can pop into being without a cause with no preexisting matter or space”. That is, it emerges from the ‘quantum vacuum state’, which contains fleeting electromagnetic waves and particles that randomly pop into and out of the quantum field.


    Not so. The quantum vacuum state, according to most cosmologists (including Vilenkin), preexisted space-time, and therefore its existence does not depend on space time.


    Where does Vilenkin say that this vacuum state preexisted the universe? He never does, and again where would it exist apart from space? In the magical land of Pixies?



    According to present-day understanding of what is called the vacuum state or the quantum vacuum, it is not simply empty space but actually filled with quantum energy and particles that randomly blink in and out of existence for a fleeting moment. These are referred to as quantum fluctuations which resulted in the Big Bang and inflated into our present universe according to Vilenkin.

    Again, we only have evidence of the quantum world in SPACE. There is no evidence that it could or does, exist independent of space. And Vilenkin also makes clear that it is very doubtful if we could ever test this theory. And if our universe was the result of quantum fluctuations then that is A CAUSE. But according to Vilenkin no CAUSE is needed.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      [/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT]

      Where does Vilenkin say that this vacuum state preexisted the universe? He never does, and again where would it exist apart from space? In the magical land of Pixies?


      Again, we only have evidence of the quantum world in SPACE. There is no evidence that it could or does, exist independent of space. And Vilenkin also makes clear that it is very doubtful if we could ever test this theory. And if our universe was the result of quantum fluctuations then that is A CAUSE. But according to Vilenkin no CAUSE is needed.
      All this just means that Vilenkin is not a philosopher, and you probably shouldn't quote him when trying to justify philosophical arguments.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

        All this just means that Vilenkin is not a philosopher, and you probably shouldn't quote him when trying to justify philosophical arguments.
        Where is the philosophy in what I posted?
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post

          Where is the philosophy in what I posted?
          Any claim that the universe could have come from nothing, or that the universe couldn't have come from nothing, is philosophy.

          Same with any claim that the universe could or couldn't have existed eternally.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

            Any claim that the universe could have come from nothing, or that the universe couldn't have come from nothing, is philosophy.

            Same with any claim that the universe could or couldn't have existed eternally.
            But hasn't Vilenkin been referencing and using science?
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post
              But hasn't Vilenkin been referencing and using science?
              Science can't show that it's possible for something to come from nothing, any more than it can show that the universe can't have existed eternally.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                Science can't show that it's possible for something to come from nothing, any more than it can show that the universe can't have existed eternally.
                I think, given the nature of the physical world, there could be good scientific reasons to believe matter and energy are not past eternal. As Vilenkin maps out...
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  I think, given the nature of the physical world, there could be good scientific reasons to believe matter and energy are not past eternal. As Vilenkin maps out...
                  If you make the assumption that our understanding of the laws of physics is complete, and that the laws of physics never change, then you can argue, as Vilenkin does, that matter and energy are not past eternal. But it's pretty clear that our understanding of the laws of physics is not complete, and we can't be sure that the laws of physics never change.

                  In any case, the more certain you are that nothing can come from nothing, the more certain you should be that there has always been something. And the more certain you are that there has not always been something, the less certain you should be that nothing can come from nothing.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                    If you make the assumption that our understanding of the laws of physics is complete, and that the laws of physics never change, then you can argue, as Vilenkin does, that matter and energy are not past eternal. But it's pretty clear that our understanding of the laws of physics is not complete, and we can't be sure that the laws of physics never change.
                    Except, from what I understand, we would need laws that are completely unknown presently and even run counter to the laws that we have.

                    In any case, the more certain you are that nothing can come from nothing, the more certain you should be that there has always been something. And the more certain you are that there has not always been something, the less certain you should be that nothing can come from nothing.
                    Err, OK...

                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Except, from what I understand, we would need laws that are completely unknown presently and even run counter to the laws that we have.
                      Not really. He treats the second law of thermodynamics as if it's an ironclad law, when really it's just a probabilistic law. And when you're dealing with an infinite amount of time, probabilities don't mean much.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Stoic View Post
                        Not really. He treats the second law of thermodynamics as if it's an ironclad law, when really it's just a probabilistic law. And when you're dealing with an infinite amount of time, probabilities don't mean much.
                        As applied to the universe as a whole do you think your link understand the second law better than Vilenkin? And as he said it would also violate the Hubble constant.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          As applied to the universe as a whole do you think your link understand the second law better than Vilenkin?
                          It certainly appears that way.

                          And as he said it would also violate the Hubble constant.
                          He said that one particular model would violate the Hubble constant. (I'm not sure what he meant by that. Maybe he meant that if the model were correct, galaxies would not be moving away from Earth at speeds proportional to their distance.)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post
                            [/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT]

                            Where does Vilenkin say that this vacuum state preexisted the universe? He never does, and again where would it exist apart from space? In the magical land of Pixies?
                            There was NO universe until c.14 billion years ago when it emerged from a singularity at the Big Bang and rapidly inflated – according to the Borde-Guth-Vilenkin Theorem. Before this event space and time did not exist, merely quantum energy and particles that randomly blinked in and out of existence for fleeting moments.

                            Again, we only have evidence of the quantum world in SPACE. There is no evidence that it could or does, exist independent of space. And Vilenkin also makes clear that it is very doubtful if we could ever test this theory. And if our universe was the result of quantum fluctuations then that is A CAUSE. But according to Vilenkin no CAUSE is needed.
                            See above.
                            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Stoic View Post
                              It certainly appears that way.
                              I doubt that, nothing in your link shows that this universe will not run out of useful energy. Or that entropy is not case in closed systems.


                              He said that one particular model would violate the Hubble constant. (I'm not sure what he meant by that. Maybe he meant that if the model were correct, galaxies would not be moving away from Earth at speeds proportional to their distance.)
                              No that had to do with the multiverse and the possibility of that being past eternal.

                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                                There was NO universe until c.14 billion years ago when it emerged from a singularity at the Big Bang and rapidly inflated – according to the Borde-Guth-Vilenkin Theorem. Before this event space and time did not exist, merely quantum energy and particles that randomly blinked in and out of existence for fleeting moments.
                                So again, where did your magical quantum world exist since there was no space? Be specific. And again Vilenkin never says that the quantum world preexisted the creation of the universe.



                                See above.



                                Nonsense Tass, if quantum particles gave rise to this universe then that is a CAUSE, some that Vilenkin said was not needed.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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