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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Infinity and Kalam

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post

    But your beliefs, if true, are no less factual as anything science comes up....
    I repeat again and again.

    Conclusion, you cannot use science to justify the Theological claim of a physical existence beginning from absolute nothing. I do not make this claim. I only believe based on science you cannot make a definitive conclusion either way. I only believe that our physical existence is possibly eternal and infinite.

    You cannot cite Vilenkin and Guth to support your theoogical assertion that our physical existence had an absolute beginning from philosophical absolute nothing. Vilenkin, Guth and virtually all scientists fere to the Quantum Vacuum as definable and falsifiable something, based on Quantum Mechanics.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-23-2021, 12:28 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

      You cannot cite Vilenkin and Guth to support your theoogical assertion that our physical existence had an absolute beginning from philosophical absolute nothing. Vilenkin, Guth and virtually all scientists fere to the Quantum Vacuum as definable and falsifiable something, based on Quantum Mechanics.
      No I quote Vilenkin to 1. show that the multiverse can not be past eternal, and 2. that the universe could come into being WITHOUT A CAUSE.

      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

        I was not referring to my beliefs nor unicorns, I referred to what Vilenkin believed as he stated in the following: Modern physics can describe the emergence of the universe as a physical process that does not require a cause.

        No, posting again Vilenkins own words.
        yes his own words....

        THE ANSWER to the question, “Did the universe have a beginning?” is, “It probably did.” We have no viable models of an eternal universe. The BGV theorem gives us reason to believe that such models simply cannot be constructed.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post

          yes his own words....

          THE ANSWER to the question, “Did the universe have a beginning?” is, “It probably did.” We have no viable models of an eternal universe. The BGV theorem gives us reason to believe that such models simply cannot be constructed.
          This conclusion of Vilenkin is based on his model and theory, There is absolutely NO specific objective verifiable evidence for his conclusions above, therefore not all scientists agree with Vilenkin's conslusions. Your being dishonest and selective of references and misrepresenting the over all view of the different contemporary cosmologists that DO NOT agree with Vilenkin.

          Can you explain why the other cosmologists and physicists disagree with Vilenkin?

          Again, again and again . . .

          Vilenkin clearly and specifically stated as cited: Modern physics can describe the emergence of the universe as a physical process that does not require a cause.

          No, posting again Vilenkins own words.
          Your posting of Volenkin's words is selective and dishonest to justify your religious agenda.

          You have totally failed to present any scientific source providing objective verifiable evidence for an absolute beginning of our physical existence. That is the bottomline.

          Still waiting . . .
          Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-23-2021, 01:41 PM.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

            This conclusion of Vilenkin is based on his model and theory, There is absolutely NO specific objective verifiable evidence for his conclusions above, therefore not all scientists agree with Vilenkin's conslusions. Your being dishonest and selective of references and misrepresenting the over all view of the different contemporary cosmologists that DO NOT agree with Vilenkin.
            No Shuny, he is not only speaking of his own model.

            We have no viable models of an eternal universe.

            "Models" plural...


            Vilenkin clearly and specifically stated as cited: Modern physics can describe the emergence of the universe as a physical process that does not require a cause.
            If the universe can arise without a cause then there is no need of a preexisting quantum vacuum, since that would be a cause...

            Your posting of Volenkin's words is selective and dishonest to justify your religious agenda.
            That is a lie Shuny, your religion needs past eternal matter or energy. The Christian has no Scripture that says that God couldn't have been creating forever in the past, different worlds and such. You are obviously defending your theology.

            You have totally failed to present any scientific source providing objective verifiable evidence for an absolute beginning of our physical existence. That is the bottomline.

            Still waiting . . .
            I will be happy to - right after you give me evidence that unicorns don't exist. I will be waiting....
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Would you say that space is causally inert?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post

                No Shuny, he is not only speaking of his own model.

                We have no viable models of an eternal universe.

                "Models" plural
                He is speakind as to what he 'believes concerning the results of his model. Of course, he believes his model is the correct one, but the other cosmologists and scientists disagree..




                If the universe can arise without a cause then there is no need of a preexisting quantum vacuum, since that would be a cause...
                The 'cause' Vilenkin is referring to is other than Natural Laws and physical processes.

                Vilenkin: Modern physics can describe the emergence of the universe as a physical process that does not require a cause.




                That is a lie Shuny, your religion needs past eternal matter or energy. The Christian has no Scripture that says that God couldn't have been creating forever in the past, different worlds and such. You are obviously defending your theology.
                NO, only that based on science, our physical existence is possibly eternal and infinite.

                I will be happy to - right after you give me evidence that unicorns don't exist. I will be waiting....
                There is absolutely no 'objective verifiable evidence' that our physical existence is either 'eternal and infinite' nor finite and temporal. I only consider it 'possible' that our universe is infinite and eternal.

                You on the other hand believe that our physical existence cannot be infinite and eternal based on a selective biased dishonest citations of Vilenkin and Guth, and failing to acknowledge that other cosmologists and scientists disagree.

                You also misrepresent what is the Quantum Vacuum based on the accepted definition as cited by ALL cosmologists and scientists including Vilenkin and Guth.

                Your view is Newtonian, because you believe that there is only the Newtonian space/time universe that arose Created from Absolute nothing. No cosmologists including Vilenkin and Guth would agree with this. The 'nothing' of Quantum Vacuum is defined as 'something' based on Quantum Mechanics.

                Again . . . This article previously cited defines the Quantum Vacuum sgreed by ALL cosmologists: https://www.forbes.com/sites/startsw...h=703ed475f838
                Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-23-2021, 09:16 PM.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                  He is speakind as to what he 'believes concerning the results of his model. Of course, he believes his model is the correct one, but the other cosmologists and scientists disagree..
                  Nonsense Shuny, he is not only speaking of his model. There are NO MODELS.

                  In the not-so-distant past, Vilenkin himself has advocated cosmogenic theories that entail an eternal universe, but based on cosmological theorems he developed with Alan Guth and Arvin Borde, as well as an examination of the various candidates for an eternal universe, Vilenkin has come to see that all the evidence points in a singular direction: the universe had an absolute beginning in the finite past.

                  Vilenkin discussed three models for an eternal universe in his presentation, describing why each cannot deliver on what it promises. The first is Alan Guth’s eternal inflation model which proposes eternally inflating bubble universes within a multiverse that stretches both forward and backward in time. In 2003 Vilenkin and Guth discovered that the math for this model will not work because it violates the Hubble constant. Speaking of the inflationary multiverse, Vilenkin said “it can’t possibly be eternal in the past,” and that “there must be some kind of boundary.”

                  The second cosmological model was the cyclical model, which proposes that the universe goes through an eternal series of contractions and expansions – our Big Bang being the latest contraction in an eternal series. Vilenkin shows that this model cannot extend infinitely into the past either because disorder would accumulate with each cycle. If the universe has been going through this process eternally, we should find ourselves in a universe that is completely disordered and dead. We do not, hence a cyclical universe cannot extend infinitely into the past.

                  The final cosmological model Vilenkin deconstructed is the cosmic egg model. On this model the universe exists eternally in a steady state, but then it “cracked” resulting in the Big Bang. The problem with this model is that quantum instabilities would not allow the “egg” to remain in a steady state for an infinite amount of time. It would be forced to collapse after a finite amount of time, and thus cannot be eternal.

                  Vilenkin concluded by saying “All the evidence we have says that the universe had a beginning.” The power of this statement, and its source, should not be underestimated. Like many other cosmologists, Vilenkin was not satisfied to conclude that the Standard Model (Big Bang) was the end of the story. He wanted the universe to be eternal.

                  https://thinkingtobelieve.com/2012/0...d-a-beginning/


                  The 'cause' Vilenkin is referring to is other than Natural Laws and physical processes.

                  Vilenkin: Modern physics can describe the emergence of the universe as a physical process that does not require a cause.
                  Right can form without the need of a preexisting quantum condition to cause it. Of course it is merely speculation.


                  NO, only that based on science, our physical existence is possibly eternal and infinite.
                  Evidence please...And then present evidence for the elusive unicorn.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post

                    Nonsense Shuny, he is not only speaking of his model. There are NO MODELS.




                    Right can form without the need of a preexisting quantum condition to cause it. Of course it is merely speculation.




                    Evidence please...And then present evidence for the elusive unicorn.
                    There is absolutely no 'objective verifiable evidence' that our physical existence is either 'eternal and infinite' nor finite and temporal. I only consider it 'possible' that our universe is infinite and eternal.

                    You on the other hand believe that our physical existence cannot be infinite and eternal based on a selective biased dishonest citations of Vilenkin and Guth, and failing to acknowledge that other cosmologists and scientists disagree.

                    You also misrepresent what is the Quantum Vacuum based on the accepted definition as cited by ALL cosmologists and scientists including Vilenkin and Guth.

                    Your view is Newtonian, because you believe that there is only the Newtonian space/time universe that arose Created from Absolute nothing. No cosmologists including Vilenkin and Guth would agree with this. The 'nothing' of Quantum Vacuum is defined as 'something' based on Quantum Mechanics.

                    Again . . . This article previously cited defines the Quantum Vacuum sgreed by ALL cosmologists: https://www.forbes.com/sites/startsw...h=703ed475f838
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                      There is absolutely no 'objective verifiable evidence' that our physical existence is either 'eternal and infinite' nor finite and temporal. I only consider it 'possible' that our universe is infinite and eternal.
                      Vilenkin concluded by saying “All the evidence we have says that the universe had a beginning.”

                      And there is no evidence of anything preexisting this universe...
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post

                        Vilenkin concluded by saying “All the evidence we have says that the universe had a beginning.”
                        Yes a beginning in a multiverse.

                        This is accepted as a possibility based in his model which includes a multiverse with universes forming in the Quantum Vacuum as cited. Vilenkin did not present any 'objective verifiable evidence to support his model. Only a model based on Quantum Mechanics, and If you accept Vilenkin's work you accept his multiverse proposal.

                        And there is no evidence of anything preexisting this universe...
                        There is no objective verifiable evidence of either an absolute finite and temporal beginning nor an infinite and eternal physical existence.Again Vilenkin did not propose an absolute beginning for our physical existence.

                        Still waiting . . .
                        Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-25-2021, 12:37 AM.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                          Yes a beginning in a multiverse.

                          This is accepted as a possibility based in his model which includes a multiverse with universes forming in the Quantum Vacuum as cited. Vilenkin did not present any 'objective verifiable evidence to support his model. Only a model based on Quantum Mechanics, and If you accept Vilenkin's work you accept his multiverse proposal.



                          There is no objective verifiable evidence of either an absolute finite and temporal beginning nor an infinite and eternal physical existence.Again Vilenkin did not propose an absolute beginning for our physical existence.

                          Still waiting . . .
                          Shuny go enjoy Thanksgiving with your family. You lost the argument....
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post

                            Shuny go enjoy Thanksgiving with your family. You lost the argument....
                            Your the Turkey roasted big time and well done. Stoic's posts also brought the failure of your argument based on a religious agenda and not evidence.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                              Your the Turkey roasted big time and well done. Stoic's posts also brought the failure of your argument based on a religious agenda and not evidence.
                              Shuny, you are asking me to prove a negative.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post

                                Shuny, you are asking me to prove a negative.
                                Your making a claim without evidence. Again . . . Stoic's posts are informative on this issue.
                                Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-25-2021, 09:46 AM.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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