To my deterministic friends, would you agree with this statement: Human rationality is ultimately governed and directed by non-rational forces that care nothing for the concept of truth.
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Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Determinism And Rationality.
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Determinism And Rationality.
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3sTags: None
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Originally posted by Jim B. View PostcricketsAtheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostTo my deterministic friends, would you agree with this statement: Human rationality is ultimately governed and directed by non-rational forces that care nothing for the concept of truth.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by seer View PostStrange since so many high profile atheists are pushing determinism now a days...Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostNot strange at all. Atheists believe in a strictly naturalist perspective. Science and the predictability of theories and hypothesis confirms that our physical nature is deterministic, but not rigidly and mechanistically Newtonian Deterministic.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostTo my deterministic friends, would you agree with this statement: Human rationality is ultimately governed and directed by non-rational forces that care nothing for the concept of truth."[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View PostNope. I wouldn't agree.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostWhich part? And why?
In particular, though, I would specifically say that "non-rational forces that care nothing for the concept of truth" is very misleading. If you mean that the processes being described do not perform the act of reasoning, in and of themselves, I'll agree. However, I would not say that these forces are irrational. Similarly, while they certainly don't perform the act of caring, that doesn't preclude them from being ordered toward truth."[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View PostIn particular, though, I would specifically say that "non-rational forces that care nothing for the concept of truth" is very misleading. If you mean that the processes being described do not perform the act of reasoning, in and of themselves, I'll agree. However, I would not say that these forces are irrational. Similarly, while they certainly don't perform the act of caring, that doesn't preclude them from being ordered toward truth.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostI wouldn't use the term irrational, I would say non-rational.
So in what sense would non-rational or, non-reasoning, forces be aimed at truth."[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View PostThat, again, seems like very loose vocabulary to me. By "non-rational," do you simply mean that these things cannot perform the act of reasoning? Or does "non-rational" mean more than that, to you?
In the sense that "truth" is that which corresponds to reality and these processes are a part of reality.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostWe could use non-reasoning.
And we would be speaking of truths as in propositional truths.
The non-reasoning forces of nature do not, nor can not, aim at such propositional truths since they are conceptual by nature.
But it goes deeper than that. If determinism is true we don't believe a thing because it is true, we believe it because we were determined to.
The thing may be true, but that has no bearing on why we believe it."[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View PostThen you aren't talking about Truth, as a concept, you are talking about truth valuation.
I'll agree that we are talking about things which cannot evaluate the truth of a proposition.
These are not mutually exclusive. We can be determined to believe a proposition because of the truth of that proposition.
Determinism entails that an outcome necessarily arises from its given input parameters. There's no reason why a proposition's truth cannot be one of those input parameters. In such a case, it most certainly could have a bearing on why we believe it.Last edited by seer; 05-09-2020, 03:33 PM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
Then you aren't talking about Truth, as a concept, you are talking about truth valuation.
These are not mutually exclusive. We can be determined to believe a proposition because of the truth of that proposition.
Determinism entails that an outcome necessarily arises from its given input parameters. There's no reason why a proposition's truth cannot be one of those input parameters. In such a case, it most certainly could have a bearing on why we believe it.
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