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Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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The Divine Non-Contradiction Principle and Why it Fails-Refuted
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Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-10-2014, 06:28 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI do not consider philosophical naturalism and assumption. I consider it the conclusion equal to the belief in atheism. ...βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostAre you intending to define atheism as belief?
The denial that it is a belief is similar to many theists who deny that their belief is not a 'religion,' or a number of churches deny that they are churches, ie Jehovah Witnesses.Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-10-2014, 06:19 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostYes, I do. If not a belief, what is it? There are churches and institutions such as the Unitarian Universalist Church that have atheist/agnostic principles at their foundation.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostJust checking. I know some atheists would disagree. I know that Unitarians welcome atheists (and pretty much everyone) but was not aware of their having atheist foundational principles. How would you respond to an atheist who says that atheism is not itself a belief but simply the absence or critique of belief in God?
I would consider this denial a word game similar to the Jehovah Witness denial that they are a church, or the place they worship is not a church.
Some use words as stones to build walls and through at others.Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-10-2014, 06:43 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe Unitarian Universalist Credo is the Humanist Manifesto, which describes Naturalist Humanism as source human morals, ethics, and beliefs. Yes, Unitarians do welcome pretty much everyone, but their foundation principles and teachings pretty much exclude theism. In reality most religions and churches say they 'welcome everyone,' but in reality their foundation beliefs and theology excludes all who do not share their beliefs. UUs are just more open and eclectic as far as alternate beliefs not generally accepted by establishment churches.
I would consider this denial a word game similar to the Jehovah Witness denial that they are a church, or the place they worship is not a church.
Some use words as stones to build walls and through at others.
What if an atheist is not playing word games or throwing stones but just being honest about her understanding of her own atheism being a lack of theistic belief and/or a critique of theistic belief?βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI do not consider philosophical naturalism an assumption, and it is based on methodological naturalism. Methodological Natural remains neutral to existence of anything outside our physical existence. I consider it the conclusion based on the lack of objective falsifiable evidence of 'God(s) and equivalent to the belief in atheism. An example of an assumption would be that our physical existence is infinite and eternal. Most Christians and Muslims assume our physical existence is temporal and finite. The Baha'i Faith cosmogony is the only theist view that believes in an infinite and eternal physical existence.
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I think Shuny was speaking of an eternal cosmos without beginning, not individual physical resurrection in heaven or hell.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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I believe the root of this negative word association is the belief that words like 'belief, religion, and church' are human made and not fundamentally true.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by OingoBoingo View PostYou have that backwards. Christians believe in a physical re-embodiment of the living and the dead to eternal life. Likewise, Muslims believe in a later reunification of the soul to the body before final judgement to an eternal life in Paradise or Hell. The Baha'i faith does not believe in an infinite and eternal physical existence, at least, not according to official channels. According to Bahai.org:
Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-10-2014, 07:49 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI believe the root of this negative word association is the belief that words like 'belief, religion, and church' are human made and not fundamentally true.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Are there authoritative texts or authoritative tradition(s) of interpretation or any kind of living and continuing teaching authority recognized by some or all Baha'is?βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe Unitarian Universalist Credo is the Humanist Manifesto, which describes Naturalist Humanism as source human morals, ethics, and beliefs. Yes, Unitarians do welcome pretty much everyone, but their foundation principles and teachings pretty much exclude theism. In reality most religions and churches say they 'welcome everyone,' but in reality their foundation beliefs and theology excludes all who do not share their beliefs. UUs are just more open and eclectic as far as alternate beliefs not generally accepted by establishment churches.
I would consider this denial a word game similar to the Jehovah Witness denial that they are a church, or the place they worship is not a church.
Some use words as stones to build walls and through at others.I'm not here anymore.
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostInteresting. I had no idea that the foundation principles of Unitarians pretty much exclude theism.I'm not here anymore.
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