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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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The Divine Non-Contradiction Principle and Why it Fails-Refuted

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
    It's probably a safe guess that most atheists, at least among those who are active on Internet forums, assume the truth of philosophical naturalism.
    I do not consider philosophical naturalism an assumption, and it is based on methodological naturalism. Methodological Natural remains neutral to existence of anything outside our physical existence. I consider it the conclusion based on the lack of objective falsifiable evidence of 'God(s) and equivalent to the belief in atheism. An example of an assumption would be that our physical existence is infinite and eternal. Most Christians and Muslims assume our physical existence is temporal and finite. The Baha'i Faith cosmogony is the only theist view that believes in an infinite and eternal physical existence.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-10-2014, 06:28 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      I do not consider philosophical naturalism and assumption. I consider it the conclusion equal to the belief in atheism. ...
      Are you intending to define atheism as belief?
      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by robrecht View Post
        Are you intending to define atheism as belief?
        Yes, I do. If not a belief, what is it? There are churches and institutions such as the Unitarian Universalist Church that have atheist/agnostic principles at their foundation.

        The denial that it is a belief is similar to many theists who deny that their belief is not a 'religion,' or a number of churches deny that they are churches, ie Jehovah Witnesses.
        Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-10-2014, 06:19 AM.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          Yes, I do. If not a belief, what is it? There are churches and institutions such as the Unitarian Universalist Church that have atheist/agnostic principles at their foundation.
          Just checking. I know some atheists would disagree. I know that Unitarians welcome atheists (and pretty much everyone) but was not aware of their having atheist foundational principles. How would you respond to an atheist who says that atheism is not itself a belief but simply the absence or critique of belief in God?
          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by robrecht View Post
            Just checking. I know some atheists would disagree. I know that Unitarians welcome atheists (and pretty much everyone) but was not aware of their having atheist foundational principles. How would you respond to an atheist who says that atheism is not itself a belief but simply the absence or critique of belief in God?
            The Unitarian Universalist Credo is the Humanist Manifesto, which describes Naturalist Humanism as source human morals, ethics, and beliefs. Yes, Unitarians do welcome pretty much everyone, but their foundation principles and teachings pretty much exclude theism. In reality most religions and churches say they 'welcome everyone,' but in reality their foundation beliefs and theology excludes all who do not share their beliefs. UUs are just more open and eclectic as far as alternate beliefs not generally accepted by establishment churches.

            I would consider this denial a word game similar to the Jehovah Witness denial that they are a church, or the place they worship is not a church.

            Some use words as stones to build walls and through at others.
            Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-10-2014, 06:43 AM.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              The Unitarian Universalist Credo is the Humanist Manifesto, which describes Naturalist Humanism as source human morals, ethics, and beliefs. Yes, Unitarians do welcome pretty much everyone, but their foundation principles and teachings pretty much exclude theism. In reality most religions and churches say they 'welcome everyone,' but in reality their foundation beliefs and theology excludes all who do not share their beliefs. UUs are just more open and eclectic as far as alternate beliefs not generally accepted by establishment churches.

              I would consider this denial a word game similar to the Jehovah Witness denial that they are a church, or the place they worship is not a church.

              Some use words as stones to build walls and through at others.
              Interesting. I had no idea that the foundation principles of Unitarians pretty much exclude theism.

              What if an atheist is not playing word games or throwing stones but just being honest about her understanding of her own atheism being a lack of theistic belief and/or a critique of theistic belief?
              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                I do not consider philosophical naturalism an assumption, and it is based on methodological naturalism. Methodological Natural remains neutral to existence of anything outside our physical existence. I consider it the conclusion based on the lack of objective falsifiable evidence of 'God(s) and equivalent to the belief in atheism. An example of an assumption would be that our physical existence is infinite and eternal. Most Christians and Muslims assume our physical existence is temporal and finite. The Baha'i Faith cosmogony is the only theist view that believes in an infinite and eternal physical existence.
                You have that backwards. Christians believe in a physical re-embodiment of the living and the dead to eternal life. Likewise, Muslims believe in a later reunification of the soul to the body before final judgement to an eternal life in Paradise or Hell. The Baha'i faith does not believe in an infinite and eternal physical existence, at least, not according to official channels. According to Bahai.org:

                Source: Heaven and hell: a Bahá'í view of life after death

                The soul does not die; it endures everlastingly. When the human body dies, the soul is freed from ties with the physical body and the surrounding physical world and begins its progress through the spiritual world. Bahá'ís understand the spiritual world to be a timeless and placeless extension of our own universe--and not some physically remote or removed place.

                © Copyright Original Source



                Source: Heaven and hell: a Bahá'í view of life after death

                "Know thou, of a truth, that if the soul of man hath walked in the ways of God, it will, assuredly return and be gathered to the glory of the Beloved," Bahá'u'lláh wrote. "By the righteousness of God! It shall attain a station such as no pen can depict, or tongue can describe."

                In the final analysis, heaven can be seen partly as a state of nearness to God; hell is a state of remoteness from God. Each state follows as a natural consequence of individual efforts, or the lack thereof, to develop spiritually. The key to spiritual progress is to follow the path outlined by the Manifestations of God.

                Beyond this, the exact nature of the afterlife remains a mystery. "The nature of the soul after death can never be described," Bahá'u'lláh writes.

                © Copyright Original Source

                Comment


                • #23
                  I think Shuny was speaking of an eternal cosmos without beginning, not individual physical resurrection in heaven or hell.
                  βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                  ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                  אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I believe the root of this negative word association is the belief that words like 'belief, religion, and church' are human made and not fundamentally true.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by OingoBoingo View Post
                      You have that backwards. Christians believe in a physical re-embodiment of the living and the dead to eternal life. Likewise, Muslims believe in a later reunification of the soul to the body before final judgement to an eternal life in Paradise or Hell. The Baha'i faith does not believe in an infinite and eternal physical existence, at least, not according to official channels. According to Bahai.org:

                      Source: Heaven and hell: a Bahá'í view of life after death

                      The soul does not die; it endures everlastingly. When the human body dies, the soul is freed from ties with the physical body and the surrounding physical world and begins its progress through the spiritual world. Bahá'ís understand the spiritual world to be a timeless and placeless extension of our own universe--and not some physically remote or removed place.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      Source: Heaven and hell: a Bahá'í view of life after death

                      "Know thou, of a truth, that if the soul of man hath walked in the ways of God, it will, assuredly return and be gathered to the glory of the Beloved," Bahá'u'lláh wrote. "By the righteousness of God! It shall attain a station such as no pen can depict, or tongue can describe."

                      In the final analysis, heaven can be seen partly as a state of nearness to God; hell is a state of remoteness from God. Each state follows as a natural consequence of individual efforts, or the lack thereof, to develop spiritually. The key to spiritual progress is to follow the path outlined by the Manifestations of God.

                      Beyond this, the exact nature of the afterlife remains a mystery. "The nature of the soul after death can never be described," Bahá'u'lláh writes.

                      © Copyright Original Source

                      Robrecht got it right. If you read my posts I was referring ONLY to the 'Nature of our physical existence' and its origins. Pretty much all cosmological arguments from the Christian and Islamic perspective assume that our everything in our physical existence had a beginning, therefore the necessity of a Source outside our physical existence, ie God(s).
                      Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-10-2014, 07:49 AM.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        I believe the root of this negative word association is the belief that words like 'belief, religion, and church' are human made and not fundamentally true.
                        Interesting. Is your view that some words are fundamentally true or none of them, at least 'human' words. Is all truth ineffable, or just some fundamental truths.
                        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                          I think Shuny was speaking of an eternal cosmos without beginning, not individual physical resurrection in heaven or hell.
                          Baha'i teaching is inconsistent on this matter. Initial Baha'i teachings taught the following:

                          Source: Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh - CXLVIII

                          All that is in heaven and all that is in the earth have come to exist at His bidding, and by His Will all have stepped out of utter nothingness into the realm of being.

                          © Copyright Original Source



                          Source: Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh - XXVII

                          All praise to the unity of God, and all honor to Him, the sovereign Lord, the incomparable and all-glorious Ruler of the universe, Who, out of utter nothingness, hath created the reality of all things, Who, from naught, hath brought into being the most refined and subtle elements of His creation, and Who, rescuing His creatures from the abasement of remoteness and the perils of ultimate extinction, hath received them into His kingdom of incorruptible glory. Nothing short of His all-encompassing grace, His all-pervading mercy, could have possibly achieved it. How could it, otherwise, have been possible for sheer nothingness to have acquired by itself the worthiness and capacity to emerge from its state of non-existence into the realm of being?

                          Having created the world and all that liveth and moveth therein, He, through the direct operation of His unconstrained and sovereign Will, chose to confer upon man the unique distinction and capacity to know Him and to love Him—a capacity that must needs be regarded as the generating impulse and the primary purpose underlying the whole of creation…. Upon the inmost reality of each and every created thing He hath shed the light of one of His names, and made it a recipient of the glory of one of His attributes. Upon the reality of man, however, He hath focused the radiance of all of His names and attributes, and made it a mirror of His own Self. Alone of all created things man hath been singled out for so great a favor, so enduring a bounty.

                          © Copyright Original Source



                          Source: Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh - LXXXIV

                          Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures. This is the true meaning of Divine unity. He Who is the Eternal Truth is the one Power Who exerciseth undisputed sovereignty over the world of being, Whose image is reflected in the mirror of the entire creation. All existence is dependent upon Him, and from Him is derived the source of the sustenance of all things. This is what is meant by Divine unity; this is its fundamental principle.

                          Some, deluded by their idle fancies, have conceived all created things as associates and partners of God, and imagined themselves to be the exponents of His unity. By Him Who is the one true God! Such men have been, and will continue to remain, the victims of blind imitation, and are to be numbered with them that have restricted and limited the conception of God.

                          © Copyright Original Source

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Are there authoritative texts or authoritative tradition(s) of interpretation or any kind of living and continuing teaching authority recognized by some or all Baha'is?
                            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              The Unitarian Universalist Credo is the Humanist Manifesto, which describes Naturalist Humanism as source human morals, ethics, and beliefs. Yes, Unitarians do welcome pretty much everyone, but their foundation principles and teachings pretty much exclude theism. In reality most religions and churches say they 'welcome everyone,' but in reality their foundation beliefs and theology excludes all who do not share their beliefs. UUs are just more open and eclectic as far as alternate beliefs not generally accepted by establishment churches.

                              I would consider this denial a word game similar to the Jehovah Witness denial that they are a church, or the place they worship is not a church.

                              Some use words as stones to build walls and through at others.
                              Don't make the mistake of conflating humanist principles with atheist/agnostic principles. They are not identical. In point of fact, there's an Atheist+ movement designed to spread both atheism and humanism.
                              I'm not here anymore.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                                Interesting. I had no idea that the foundation principles of Unitarians pretty much exclude theism.
                                I'd caution against taking his word for it. Unitarian Universalism is not about the truth of a specific religion (as members can identify with any religion) but is rather a means for multiple belief systems to coexist peacefully. His claim that the principles pretty much exclude theism is inaccurate.
                                I'm not here anymore.

                                Comment

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