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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Morally Wrong Behavior vs. What the Civil Government Should Prohibit

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    Throughout most of its history Christianity tolerated or endorsed slavery until comparatively recently. It wasn't until the Enlightenment that society began to argue liberty was a natural human right and that reason and scientific knowledge—not the state or the church—were responsible for human progress. In many instances Christians actively resisted the abolition of slavery, e.g. in the southern states of the USA.
    You have no idea what you are talking about. The abolitionists largely held their positions on religious grounds. Second, science tells us nothing about human rights. Third, what is a natural human right? And the idea of human rights were around long before the enlightenment. Go back to Thomas Aquinas: https://www.diametros.iphils.uj.edu....ticle/view/542
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      Shuny, as my link stated though Enlightenment philosophers opposed slavery it was Christians why actually got it done, who led the movement. And it wasn't my response.

      Again: "Although many Enlightenment philosophers opposed slavery, it was Christian activists, attracted by strong religious elements, who initiated and organized an abolitionist movement. [1] Throughout Europe and the United States, Christians, usually from "un-institutional" Christian faith movements."

      And who exactly were the "Rational humanist" who were actually involved in the abolitionist movement? Names and references please.
      I provided the reference. Did you read it?
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        You have no idea what you are talking about. The abolitionists largely held their positions on religious grounds. Second, science tells us nothing about human rights. Third, what is a natural human right? And the idea of human rights were around long before the enlightenment. Go back to Thomas Aquinas: https://www.diametros.iphils.uj.edu....ticle/view/542
        . . . but not the religious grounds of the Bible, because the Bible does not forbid slavery in any form, and in places advocates slavery.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          Again Shuny what don't you understand:
          You have not responded to my reference, and prevalence of slavery in Christianity.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            You have no idea what you are talking about. The abolitionists largely held their positions on religious grounds.
            Then why did it take so many centuries for these “religious grounds” to bring about an end to slavery – created in many instances by Christians in the first place?

            Second, science tells us nothing about human rights.
            Human rights are a product of the evolution of necessary social behavior to survive as cooperative intelligent social animals – they are "written on our heart" by nature.
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              I provided the reference. Did you read it?
              Yes I did Shuny, about eight pages of your link. And I still don't know what your point is because it does change that fact that it was Christians that led the abolition movement in the US and Great Britain. Was there a transcendentalist here or there, sure, but they were not the driving force.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                You have not responded to my reference, and prevalence of slavery in Christianity.
                That is like asking about the prevalence of slavery in Islam or in the Animis religions of Africa or in Hinduism, etc... You are speaking of a near universal and accepted institution. The question is, who put and end to it, the West did, mainly pushed by Christian activists.

                but not the religious grounds of the Bible, because the Bible does not forbid slavery in any form, and in places advocates slavery.
                That is false, slavery in the West was based on man stealing (kidnapping) and that is sin in both Testaments. And of course the Christian Abolitionists used Scripture. Have you ever read Harriet Beecher Stowe or her father Lyman Beecher? Or the Quakers or William Wilberforce or Thomas Clarkson? They all grounded their argument in New Testament principles.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                  Then why did it take so many centuries for these “religious grounds” to bring about an end to slavery – created in many instances by Christians in the first place?
                  Greed? Besides it is not that all Christians for all times accepted slavery. But what is the big deal to a relativist like you - it is not like slavery is a universal moral wrong. But the point is Tass, it was largely Christians (not the rational humanists) that put an end to it in the West.


                  Human rights are a product of the evolution of necessary social behavior to survive as cooperative intelligent social animals – they are "written on our heart" by nature.
                  So now you have to quote scripture? And we survived and flourished just fine when slavery was practiced near universally.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    That is like asking about the prevalence of slavery in Islam or in the Animis religions of Africa or in Hinduism, etc... You are speaking of a near universal and accepted institution. The question is, who put and end to it, the West did, mainly pushed by Christian activists.
                    Actually it ia an equivalent problem that their scriptures and cultures lack the spiritual laws and teachings that forbid slavery as Judeo Christian scriptures lack the spiritual laws to forbid slavery. Christianity claims to be a mark above the standards of the culture around them, but as matter of fact they are just like everyone else and the sulture around them, no better nor no worse.

                    That is false, slavery in the West was based on man stealing (kidnapping) and that is sin in both Testaments. And of course the Christian Abolitionists used Scripture. Have you ever read Harriet Beecher Stowe or her father Lyman Beecher? Or the Quakers or William Wilberforce or Thomas Clarkson? They all grounded their argument in New Testament principles.
                    No it is not, slavery is justified and cononed in both testaments including the buying and selling of slaves in the Old Testament. It remains a fact that slavery is not forbidden in either of the Testaments, and slavery remained common in Christianity up until the 18th century.
                    Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-11-2020, 09:40 PM.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Greed? Besides it is not that all Christians for all times accepted slavery.
                      Slavery was accepted from ancient times in ALL cultures including by Christians.

                      But what is the big deal to a relativist like you
                      Demonstrably it wasn't "a big deal" to anyone (including Christians) until relatively recently.

                      - it is not like slavery is a universal moral wrong.
                      Well yes, it is - as was recognized during the Enlightenment. The recognition of universal human rights lends itself to our survival as a social species. The origin of morality is biology and natural selection, not theology.

                      But the point is Tass, it was largely Christians (not the rational humanists) that put an end to it in the West.
                      You are wrong. Christians as such did NOT put an end to slavery. It came to an end with the recognition by ALL people of Enlightenment values such as liberty, toleration and equal rights. Values which were initially resisted by many - including many Christians.

                      So now you have to quote scripture?
                      This passage (unwittingly perhaps) reinforces our evolved recognition of the importance of social cohesion in surviving as a social species.

                      And we survived and flourished just fine when slavery was practiced near universally.
                      No doubt the Christian plantation-owners felt the same way as you do, that slavery was "just fine".
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        Actually it ia an equivalent problem that their scriptures and cultures lack the spiritual laws and teachings that forbid slavery as Judeo Christian scriptures lack the spiritual laws to forbid slavery. Christianity claims to be a mark above the standards of the culture around them, but as matter of fact they are just like everyone else and the sulture around them, no better nor no worse.
                        So what? Your religion came into being when slavery was just about abolished in the West, and abolished largely by Christians. Glad to see you were following our lead. And again Shuny, slavery in the West was largely based on man stealing (kidnapping men and selling them into slavery) and that is sin (immoral) in Scripture.


                        No it is not, slavery is justified and cononed in both testaments including the buying and selling of slaves in the Old Testament. It remains a fact that slavery is not forbidden in either of the Testaments, and slavery remained common in Christianity up until the 18th century.
                        Are you denying that man stealing is a sin? And there is nothing immoral about selling ones self into slavery for advantage. But I'm glad that the Baha'i followed the example that Christian set by rejecting slavery.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                          Slavery was accepted from ancient times in ALL cultures including by Christians.
                          You act like that was a bad thing.


                          Demonstrably it wasn't "a big deal" to anyone (including Christians) until relatively recently.
                          And why would it be a big deal to the relativist today?


                          Well yes, it is - as was recognized during the Enlightenment. The recognition of universal human rights lends itself to our survival as a social species. The origin of morality is biology and natural selection, not theology.
                          That is just stupid Tass, there are no universal moral wrongs in your world, nor can there be. And AGAIN - it wasn't rational humanists NOR their writings that put an end to slavery in the West, it was Christian activists using the love of one's neighbor and the golden rule as God given principles. John Locke one of the great Enlightenment thinkers grounded human rights in the God of the Bible.


                          You are wrong. Christians as such did NOT put an end to slavery. It came to an end with the recognition by ALL people of Enlightenment values such as liberty, toleration and equal rights. Values which were initially resisted by many - including many Christians.
                          Again Tass, list all the rational humanists that were in the forefront of the abolition movement. Or stop making false claims.


                          This passage (unwittingly perhaps) reinforces our evolved recognition of the importance of social cohesion in surviving as a social species.

                          No doubt the Christian plantation-owners felt the same way as you do, that slavery was "just fine".
                          Idiot the point was we can and did have social cohesion even with slavery. So your argument is stupid - rejecting slavery is not necessary for cohesion, try again.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            So what? Your religion came into being when slavery was just about abolished in the West, and abolished largely by Christians. Glad to see you were following our lead. And again Shuny, slavery in the West was largely based on man stealing (kidnapping men and selling them into slavery) and that is sin (immoral) in Scripture.
                            False, slavery was dominant in the USA up until 1860s, and in Christianity. Slavery may have been ended in the British Isles, but it continued by the British in India elsewhere, and in the Caribbean. It was 'some' Christians and secular humanists that were abolishonists. There are considerable writings against slavery inspired by Enlightenment philosophers.

                            [quote[ Are you denying that man stealing is a sin? [/quote]

                            No where in the Bible is stated that it was a sin to buy and sell slaves.

                            And there is nothing immoral about selling ones self into slavery for advantage.
                            Indentured servitude was common among the Jews, but so was the buying. selling and owning of foreign slaves.


                            But I'm glad that the Baha'i followed the example that Christian set by rejecting slavery.
                            No, because no where in the Bible, Torah, Tanakh nor the Quran does it specifically reject slavery.
                            Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-13-2020, 09:18 PM.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by seer View Post



                              And why would it be a big deal to the relativist today?
                              For the same reason it has been a big deal to the Christian relativist throughout history. Morality has demonstrably evolved over time from culture to culture for both religious believers and secularists. It is “relativist” to both.

                              Idiot the point was we can and did have social cohesion even with slavery. So your argument is stupid - rejecting slavery is not necessary for cohesion, try again.
                              You didn't have social cohesion for the slaves - nor for those discriminated against during the Jim Crow era, nor disenfranchised women or closeted LGBT's or Jews or 'furreigners'. But I guess it was cohesive for the majority.
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                False, slavery was dominant in the USA up until 1860s, and in Christianity. Slavery may have been ended in the British Isles, but it continued by the British in India elsewhere, and in the Caribbean. It was 'some' Christians and secular humanists that were abolishonists. There are considerable writings against slavery inspired by Enlightenment philosophers.
                                One of the primary reasons that the South seceded was that slavery wasn't dominant and was becoming less and less so.

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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