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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Morally Wrong Behavior vs. What the Civil Government Should Prohibit

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  • #46
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post

    And I'm sure it's just a coincidence that nearly everywhere slavery is still practiced Christianity is not the dominant religion.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      The small farmers hated it for a variety of reasons. One of them was motivated by sheer self-interest, namely that they could not compete against slave labor.
      It is acceptable for the belief of many laborers in the Sout to object to slavery, because of the lack of labor. but not a loathing for slavery for laborers sack. In fact after the reconstruction penal servitude slavery was far to common to replace the lost labor workforce due to the Civil War.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        How do you know what the majority supported three, four, five hundred years ago? You have polls?
        There is a matter of fact evidence of widespread support use of slavery in the North and the South 300, 400 and 500 hundred years ago among Christians, and in India. and the justification in writings of slavery using Biblical references. No need for polls. Slavery continued after the world as penal servitude to replace lost southern labor up into the 20th century. Historically trends in slavery was based on economical interests.


        That is a complete falsehood - the three specific people that Shuny mentioned were Christians. Please list the Rational Humanists that led the abolition movement in America and the British empire. I will be waiting.[/quote]

        . . .but they matntained slavery abroad in India for economic motivations. It is clear in the USA and the British Empire slavery was maintained when economically valuable.

        What is it Tass? Either we follow the values of the day or we don't - make up your mind...
        Christians were supposed to be the highest standard in an immoral world, and as a matter of fact they were not.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by seer View Post



          You are full of it Tass...
          Are you denying that the Confederate States of America fought a civil war to maintain slavery, despite being majority Christian, and subsequently maintained racial discrimination under the Jim Crow laws until being forced by the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965, to reluctantly abandon these laws?
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

            Christians were supposed to be the highest standard in an immoral world, and as a matter of fact they were not.
            No Shuny, Christians are sinners just like anybody else. And I'm not sure why you believe that slavery is immoral.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              Are you denying that the Confederate States of America fought a civil war to maintain slavery, despite being majority Christian, and subsequently maintained racial discrimination under the Jim Crow laws until being forced by the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965, to reluctantly abandon these laws?
              I'm still waiting for your list of the Rational Humanists that led the abolition movement in America and the British empire.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                I'm still waiting for your list of the Rational Humanists that led the abolition movement in America and the British empire.
                The Unitarians in particular transcendentalists like William Henry Furness and William Ware who were Deists and humanists, and I will cite others
                Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-08-2020, 09:48 PM.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  The Unitarians in particular transcendentalists like William Henry Furness and William Ware who were Deists and humanists, and I will cite others
                  Unitarians are not unbelievers, some were Deists some were classic theists some were Christian. The Unitarians pretty much let everyone in.

                  Unitarianism (from Latin unitas "unity, oneness", from unus "one") is a Christian theological movement named for its belief that the God in Christianity is one person, as opposed to the Trinity (tri- from Latin tres "three") which in most other branches of Christianity defines God as one being in three persons: the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.[1] Unitarian Christians, therefore, believe that Jesus was inspired by God in his moral teachings, and he is a savior,[2][3] but he was not a deity or God incarnate. As is typical of dissenters, Unitarianism does not constitute one single Christian denomination, but rather refers to a collection of both existing and extinct Christian groups, whether historically related to each other or not, which share a common theological concept of the oneness nature of God.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism

                  So I do not think it is a leap to say that the beliefs of Furness and Ware were informed by the teachings of Christ. Furness wrote quite a bit about the moral teachings of Christ, though like Jefferson, did believe in the miracles in the New Testament. And can you cite where Furness and Ware claim to be Deists?
                  Last edited by seer; 02-09-2020, 06:52 AM.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Unitarians are not unbelievers, some were Deists some were classic theists some were Christian. The Unitarians pretty much let everyone in.

                    Unitarianism (from Latin unitas "unity, oneness", from unus "one") is a Christian theological movement named for its belief that the God in Christianity is one person, as opposed to the Trinity (tri- from Latin tres "three") which in most other branches of Christianity defines God as one being in three persons: the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.[1] Unitarian Christians, therefore, believe that Jesus was inspired by God in his moral teachings, and he is a savior,[2][3] but he was not a deity or God incarnate. As is typical of dissenters, Unitarianism does not constitute one single Christian denomination, but rather refers to a collection of both existing and extinct Christian groups, whether historically related to each other or not, which share a common theological concept of the oneness nature of God.

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism

                    So I do not think it is a leap to say that the beliefs of Furness and Ware were informed by the teachings of Christ. Furness wrote quite a bit about the moral teachings of Christ, though like Jefferson, did believe in the miracles in the New Testament. And can you cite where Furness and Ware claim to be Deists?
                    Yes, the Unitarians represent a diversity, but those I referred to were Deists and rational humanist, and if I cite more they will be Deist and humanist at that time.. I was selective of those I refer to. Being aware of the teachings of Christ does not mean they appealed to the teachings of Christ for their opposition to slavery. As a matter of fact they did not. Also as a matter of fact the Bible did not forbid slavery of any nor every form, therefore at the time there was no guidance concerning slavery from the Bible.
                    Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-09-2020, 03:32 PM.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      Yes, the Unitarians represent a diversity, but those I referred to were Deists and humanist, and if I cite more they will be Deist and humanist at that time.. I was selective of those I refer to.
                      Shuny where is your evidence that Furness and Ware were Deists? But let's put it so even you can understand:

                      Although many Enlightenment philosophers opposed slavery, it was Christian activists, attracted by strong religious elements, who initiated and organized an abolitionist movement. [1] Throughout Europe and the United States, Christians, usually from "un-institutional" Christian faith movements, not directly connected with traditional state churches, or "non-conformist" believers within established churches, were to be found at the forefront of the abolitionist movements...

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Abolitionism
                      Exactly what I have been saying...
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Shuny where is your evidence that Furness and Ware were Deists? But let's put it so even you can understand:



                        Exactly what I have been saying...
                        This reference describes them as Deists and Transcendental rational humanists along with other Unitarian ministers. I cannot c&p to show here, but you can read for yourself.

                        https://books.google.com/books?id=bL...%22%22&f=false

                        It is from this book that refers to a number of Deist humanist Transcendentalists that are Unitarians. This reference also refers to the conflicts with Orthodox ministers in other churches and their conflicts. The Transcendentalist Ministers: Church Reform in the New England Renaissance By William R. Hutchison
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          This reference describes them as Deists and Transcendental rational humanists along with other Unitarian ministers. I cannot c&p to show here, but you can read for yourself.

                          https://books.google.com/books?id=bL...%22%22&f=false

                          It is from this book that refers to a number of Deist humanist Transcendentalists that are Unitarians. This reference also refers to the conflicts with Orthodox ministers in other churches and their conflicts. The Transcendentalist Ministers: Church Reform in the New England Renaissance By William R. Hutchison

                          Again Shuny what don't you understand:

                          Although many Enlightenment philosophers opposed slavery, it was Christian activists, attracted by strong religious elements, who initiated and organized an abolitionist movement. [1] Throughout Europe and the United States, Christians, usually from "un-institutional" Christian faith movements, not directly connected with traditional state churches, or "non-conformist" believers within established churches, were to be found at the forefront of the abolitionist movements...

                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Abolitionism
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Again Shuny what don't you understand:
                            I understand your response very well and you are dodging the bullet. The Unitarian minister and early Unitarian church leaders I referred to were Transcendental Deists and rational humanists as referenced. please respond to that. You asked for early Rational humanist the were opponents of slavery in the early movements, and I provided that.

                            You are still neglecting the fact that slavery was endemic with Christianity in the world up until the 18-19th century. Yes 'some' Christians opposed slavery, but no there is nothing in the Bible that forbids any nor every form of slavery.
                            Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-09-2020, 10:01 PM.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Shuny where is your evidence that Furness and Ware were Deists? But let's put it so even you can understand:
                              Throughout most of its history Christianity tolerated or endorsed slavery until comparatively recently. It wasn't until the Enlightenment that society began to argue liberty was a natural human right and that reason and scientific knowledge—not the state or the church—were responsible for human progress. In many instances Christians actively resisted the abolition of slavery, e.g. in the southern states of the USA.
                              Last edited by Tassman; 02-09-2020, 11:05 PM.
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                I understand your response very well and you are dodging the bullet. The Unitarian minister and early Unitarian church leaders I referred to were Transcendental Deists and rational humanists as referenced. please respond to that. You asked for early Rational humanist the were opponents of slavery in the early movements, and I provided that.

                                You are still neglecting the fact that slavery was endemic with Christianity in the world up until the 18-19th century. Yes 'some' Christians opposed slavery, but no there is nothing in the Bible that forbids any nor every form of slavery.
                                Shuny, as my link stated though Enlightenment philosophers opposed slavery it was Christians why actually got it done, who led the movement. And it wasn't my response.

                                Again: "Although many Enlightenment philosophers opposed slavery, it was Christian activists, attracted by strong religious elements, who initiated and organized an abolitionist movement. [1] Throughout Europe and the United States, Christians, usually from "un-institutional" Christian faith movements."

                                And who exactly were the "Rational humanist" who were actually involved in the abolitionist movement? Names and references please.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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