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Cogito ergo sum

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Original sin

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  • Original sin

    Original sin: The tendency to evil supposedly innate in all human beings, held to be inherited from Adam in consequence of the Fall.

    Here I'm not focusing on the why of original sin, how we got here, but the fact of original sin (or evil). That we all do evil. And it's not that we merely do evil by mistake, but that we do wrong even when we agree with ourselves that the act is wrong. We, as humans, have all experienced this: I know A is wrong, I agree that A is wrong, yet I do it anyway. The morally rational is superseded or rejected - and we choose the wrong. But why, what is driving these bad choices, if we agree and know A is wrong, what compels us to go against our best moral sense? If we say selfishness or lust then the question becomes - how/why do these so often rise to ascendancy? What makes us forgo the rational in these moral situations?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  • #2
    Just off the top of my head...

    Isn't it generally --- and I hate to use such a basic... um.... "i" is in the middle of the word "sin". Isn't it generally when *I* want to get my own way, as opposed to yielding to my brother or my Master?

    You can see this with toddlers --- with plenty of toys around, nobody seems interested in the red ball in the corner until one kid picks it up, then everybody wants it. "ME!!!!" "MINE!!!!!"

    Part of self-preservation run amuck, maybe. So, maybe it comes down to greed - we want what's best for us. Or, even worse, what we THINK is best for us.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      Just off the top of my head...

      Isn't it generally --- and I hate to use such a basic... um.... "i" is in the middle of the word "sin". Isn't it generally when *I* want to get my own way, as opposed to yielding to my brother or my Master?

      You can see this with toddlers --- with plenty of toys around, nobody seems interested in the red ball in the corner until one kid picks it up, then everybody wants it. "ME!!!!" "MINE!!!!!"

      Part of self-preservation run amuck, maybe. So, maybe it comes down to greed - we want what's best for us. Or, even worse, what we THINK is best for us.
      Yes we see this with kids, selfishness. But why with adults? I'm not speaking of unthinking lust or selfishness for instance, but when you have decided for yourself that something is morally wrong, then do it anyway. What is overriding that good sense, or to put it another way - why do we give in? Something in us is superseding or ignoring our rational mind.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Yes we see this with kids, selfishness. But why with adults? I'm not speaking of unthinking lust or selfishness for instance, but when you have decided for yourself that something is morally wrong, then do it anyway. What is overriding that good sense, or to put it another way - why do we give in? Something in us is superseding or ignoring our rational mind.
        Well, it's certainly not new, as Paul lamented...


        Scripture Verse: Romans 7:15-20 King James Version (KJV)



        15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

        16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

        17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

        18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

        19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

        20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

        © Copyright Original Source

        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

        Comment


        • #5
          Pride - I think this may be the root of most sin. Not the 'I did good' when actually doing good thing but the 'I am important/best/center of the universe/it's about me' - the pride that puts oneself on the throne of one's heart and shoves God off into a corner - or tries to. That's the kind of pride that drives our selfishness - and the rebellion that stems from it. 'You can't tell me what to do - I'm IMPORTANT', never mind how irrational the belief. It's the 'me first' pride that says 'it's okay to lie if you're scared of the consequences' even if we are in the wrong.

          It's the driver of a thousand other justifications that are employed to tell ourselves that it's okay, we're so important that a little sin here and there won't matter. But of course, we're only really that important to ourselves.

          The irony is that clinging to self importance robs us of genuine importance. We see the 'humbly' part and think it's belittling - but how awesome an honor to walk with the God of All Creation! We want to love ourselves and forget that being loved by the God of the Universe gives us a true value that we can never give ourselves. Our pride - self importance, self above all else - in the end separates us from ever being our best selves - and being truly important.

          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

          My Personal Blog

          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
            Pride - I think this may be the root of most sin. Not the 'I did good' when actually doing good thing but the 'I am important/best/center of the universe/it's about me' - the pride that puts oneself on the throne of one's heart and shoves God off into a corner - or tries to. That's the kind of pride that drives our selfishness - and the rebellion that stems from it. 'You can't tell me what to do - I'm IMPORTANT', never mind how irrational the belief. It's the 'me first' pride that says 'it's okay to lie if you're scared of the consequences' even if we are in the wrong.

            It's the driver of a thousand other justifications that are employed to tell ourselves that it's okay, we're so important that a little sin here and there won't matter. But of course, we're only really that important to ourselves.

            The irony is that clinging to self importance robs us of genuine importance. We see the 'humbly' part and think it's belittling - but how awesome an honor to walk with the God of All Creation! We want to love ourselves and forget that being loved by the God of the Universe gives us a true value that we can never give ourselves. Our pride - self importance, self above all else - in the end separates us from ever being our best selves - and being truly important.
            You are channeling CS Lewis. But this is sin, and as Christians we see this working in us. I wonder what the unbeliever says - why do they do that which they know and agree is wrong?
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              Original sin: The tendency to evil supposedly innate in all human beings, held to be inherited from Adam in consequence of the Fall.

              Here I'm not focusing on the why of original sin, how we got here, but the fact of original sin (or evil). That we all do evil. And it's not that we merely do evil by mistake, but that we do wrong even when we agree with ourselves that the act is wrong. We, as humans, have all experienced this: I know A is wrong, I agree that A is wrong, yet I do it anyway. The morally rational is superseded or rejected - and we choose the wrong. But why, what is driving these bad choices, if we agree and know A is wrong, what compels us to go against our best moral sense? If we say selfishness or lust then the question becomes - how/why do these so often rise to ascendancy? What makes us forgo the rational in these moral situations?
              Perhaps it is a matter of seeing the glass as half full or half empty? Christianity is probably the only religion with the premise of original sin?---Judaism for example, does not have this concept. That is why one is presumed innocent until proven guilty---a concept from Jewish law----which presumes human nature as inherently decent....?....

              If one presumes human nature as inherently evil---then our observations of the world and humanity will align with that presumption---but if we presume human nature to be primarily decent/good, then our observations of the world and human beings align with that presumption.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by siam View Post
                Perhaps it is a matter of seeing the glass as half full or half empty? Christianity is probably the only religion with the premise of original sin?---Judaism for example, does not have this concept. That is why one is presumed innocent until proven guilty---a concept from Jewish law----which presumes human nature as inherently decent....?....

                If one presumes human nature as inherently evil---then our observations of the world and humanity will align with that presumption---but if we presume human nature to be primarily decent/good, then our observations of the world and human beings align with that presumption.
                Judaism, as i understand it, does not assume the inherent goodness of Man - nor is the presumption of innocence based in that assumption. The presumption of innocence is more related to the fallibility of Man - and the ever popular 'eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth' which both limits punishment to not exceeding the crime and which removes class from the consideration of punishment.

                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                My Personal Blog

                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  You are channeling CS Lewis. But this is sin, and as Christians we see this working in us. I wonder what the unbeliever says - why do they do that which they know and agree is wrong?
                  The Christian is merely more aware of the problem - one of the effects of the Law is that it holds a mirror to us so we see more clearly our shortfall. But not believing doesn't insulate one from evil - and non-believers also struggle with moral, ethical and legal issues born of their desire to do right (man being made in the Image of God) - and their fallen natures that tell them 'hey, no one is looking...'

                  Their philosophic explanation for the reality varies from person to person - most seem to chalk it up to 'humans make mistakes; I am human.'. Sad part being that they deceive themselves even further by chalking up willful acts to 'mistakes' when they knew better beforehand.

                  "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                  "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                  My Personal Blog

                  My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                    Judaism, as i understand it, does not assume the inherent goodness of Man ...
                    Indeed...


                    "God looks down from heaven
                    on all mankind
                    to see if there are any who understand,
                    any who seek God.
                    Everyone has turned away, all have become corrupt;
                    there is no one who does good,
                    not even one." (Ps 53:2–3)

                    "Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous,
                    no one who does what is right and never sins." (Ecc. 7:20)

                    Sad part being that they deceive themselves even further by chalking up willful acts to 'mistakes' when they knew better beforehand.
                    That's one of my pet peeves, when people talk about their sins as "mistakes". Like they came up with a wrong sum while trying to do a right one.

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    Last edited by lee_merrill; 08-31-2019, 07:19 PM.
                    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                      Judaism, as i understand it, does not assume the inherent goodness of Man - nor is the presumption of innocence based in that assumption. The presumption of innocence is more related to the fallibility of Man - and the ever popular 'eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth' which both limits punishment to not exceeding the crime and which removes class from the consideration of punishment.
                      Perhaps Christian assumptions of "Jewish belief" and Jewish belief according to Jews may have differences?
                      A generally predominant presumption among Jews is the concept of human beings made in "God's image". Human nature is thus divided into 2 areas---heavenly/soul and earthly/body.
                      http://www.jewfaq.org/human.htm

                      also
                      https://www.patheos.com/library/juda...e-of-existence

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                        The Christian is merely more aware of the problem - one of the effects of the Law is that it holds a mirror to us so we see more clearly our shortfall. But not believing doesn't insulate one from evil - and non-believers also struggle with moral, ethical and legal issues born of their desire to do right (man being made in the Image of God) - and their fallen natures that tell them 'hey, no one is looking...'

                        Their philosophic explanation for the reality varies from person to person - most seem to chalk it up to 'humans make mistakes; I am human.'. Sad part being that they deceive themselves even further by chalking up willful acts to 'mistakes' when they knew better beforehand.
                        In this worldview where humans are inherently evil and commit actions that are deliberately malicious---where does compassion and mercy fit in?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by siam View Post
                          Perhaps Christian assumptions of "Jewish belief" and Jewish belief according to Jews may have differences?
                          A generally predominant presumption among Jews is the concept of human beings made in "God's image". Human nature is thus divided into 2 areas---heavenly/soul and earthly/body.
                          http://www.jewfaq.org/human.htm

                          also
                          https://www.patheos.com/library/juda...e-of-existence
                          And a muslim would know better how, exactly?

                          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                          My Personal Blog

                          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by siam View Post
                            In this worldview where humans are inherently evil and commit actions that are deliberately malicious---where does compassion and mercy fit in?
                            God. The only One Who is truly good.

                            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                            My Personal Blog

                            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by siam View Post
                              Perhaps it is a matter of seeing the glass as half full or half empty? Christianity is probably the only religion with the premise of original sin?---Judaism for example, does not have this concept. That is why one is presumed innocent until proven guilty---a concept from Jewish law----which presumes human nature as inherently decent....?....

                              If one presumes human nature as inherently evil---then our observations of the world and humanity will align with that presumption---but if we presume human nature to be primarily decent/good, then our observations of the world and human beings align with that presumption.
                              I believe we apply the presumption of innocence because all people are basically evil, including the accusers, who are capable of being satanic false accusers. Better to presume the accused to be innocent, and in the process let some guilty persons escape, than to presume guilt, and increase the odds of punishing the innocent.
                              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                              Beige Nationalist.

                              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                              Comment

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