Originally posted by Jim B.
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Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Atheism And Moral Progress
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The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostAnd again Carp, subjective is not relative. If the law of God exists it may be subjective to Him (Adrift would disagree) but it is not relative or ever changing, and is universal, and possibly objective if Adrift's argument is correct.Last edited by Adrift; 09-16-2019, 06:45 PM.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostTo be clear, my view is that it would neither be subjective or objective (from God's point of view). If subjective, then God takes the horn of Euthyphro's dilemma that suggests that he wills the good. If objective, then God takes the horn of the Euthyrpho dilemma that suggests that the good is something that God recognizes beyond himself, and/or that he conforms himself to. I agree with Dr. Craig that God neither merely wills the good, nor that the good is something he recognizes outside of himself, but that by being the greatest conceivable being, a being of pure perfection, and creator of all that there ever was, is, and will be, is the good. His commands are based upon his very nature. From OUR perspective, then, the good is objective because God, by his very nature, is the basis of the "good."
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Originally posted by JimL View PostI'm not sure that actually makes sense, how would you define good with respect to god alone?
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Originally posted by Jim B. View PostHere's a youtube video that's pretty good. I posted it especially for the "Normative Web" argument by Terence Cuneo. One of the other argument s begs the question as stated but can be re-stated to where it doesn't.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjkgD4w9w1k
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Originally posted by seer View PostPositive according to whom?
What is your point? There are no objectively better or worse morals, just moral change.
I said the majority of Christians for the majority of time had nothing to do with slavery, do you have evidence otherwise? There are two billion Christians earth today, more than at any other single time in history. Where are we practicing slavery?
https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/2...united-states/
But the point you keep ignoring is that Christian societies had a great deal to do with the establishment of colonies worldwide resulting in the near destruction of the indigenous cultures of the original inhabitants. King Leopold of Christian Belgium was quite the equal of the non-theist brutal dictators you like to keep referencing, as were many other Christian leaders.
Yes or no Tass, was it primarily Christians that led the Abolition movement in the West? I will be waiting for your answer.
And, does it say that slavery is good? That we should have slaves? And how are we to treat our fellow man - slaves or not?
And how many Christians support it? Do you have the number for and against?
Some thing objectively immoral which doesn't exist in your world
Compared to nothing. Maoists or Stalinist or Inquisitors or Racists are only doing what nature created them to do. Why do you dislike these acts of nature so much?“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI've done a bit of poking around, visiting at least five different dictionaries and philosophical sources. All of the definitions of "moral" and "morality" are some variation of: "principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior." Not a single one specifies that the behavior must be related to interpersonal interaction.
I stand by my original post: morality is about sorting action into "ought" and "ought not." The term "morality" is generally applied when the behavior relates to the things we value/cherish most deeply (i.e., life, liberty, happiness, etc.). That behavior is commonly associated with interactions in the context of a society, but are not necessarily so related.
Examples of the latter include prohibitions against such things as suicide and masturbation. These prohibitions can arise with or without a society/culture to relate them to.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostTo be clear, my view is that it would neither be subjective or objective (from God's point of view). If subjective, then God takes the horn of Euthyphro's dilemma that suggests that he wills the good. If objective, then God takes the horn of the Euthyrpho dilemma that suggests that the good is something that God recognizes beyond himself, and/or that he conforms himself to. I agree with Dr. Craig that God neither merely wills the good, nor that the good is something he recognizes outside of himself, but that by being the greatest conceivable being, a being of pure perfection, and creator of all that there ever was, is, and will be, is the good. His commands are based upon his very nature. From OUR perspective, then, the good is objective because God, by his very nature, is the basis of the "good."Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Adrift View Post...but in order to do so he implicitly holds right reason as an objective standard to progress towards.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Jim B. View PostHere's a youtube video that's pretty good. I posted it especially for the "Normative Web" argument by Terence Cuneo. One of the other argument s begs the question as stated but can be re-stated to where it doesn't.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjkgD4w9w1kAtheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostIf the greatest conceivable being, an absolutely perfect being, and the creator/sustainer of everything is "the good," then it follows that the commands issued by that being are good. We define the good by that which flows from God's absolutely perfect nature. Anything that falls short/misses the mark of "the good" is moral sin.
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Originally posted by seer View PostI agree generally with this Adrift but... If God's law is subjective to Him (which I think it is because He is the Subject) He still would not be impaled on one of the horns since His moral law is grounded in His immutably good moral nature. So even if His law is subjective, neither does He merely will it, nor is He beholden to an external moral standard.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostPositive according to the countries with equitable 'human rights' that have topped the World Happiness Report and Human Development Index. Or would you prefer no ‘human rights’ in a dictatorship.
Yes. The moral values of society have demonstrably “changed” over the millennia and religious values have changed along with them. E.g. Do you not consider that abolition of two centuries of slavery in the largely Christian US to be “better” than what went on before?
Actually, according to the Global Slavery Index “forced labor” STILL occurs in many contexts in the predominantly Christian United States.
https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/2...united-states/
But the point you keep ignoring is that Christian societies had a great deal to do with the establishment of colonies worldwide resulting in the near destruction of the indigenous cultures of the original inhabitants. King Leopold of Christian Belgium was quite the equal of the non-theist brutal dictators you like to keep referencing, as were many other Christian leaders.
Well you’re a Christian in the US. Do YOU support the 1964 Civil Rights Act?
These are not “acts of nature” per se. The only “act of nature” in this context is the evolution of the necessary social behavior of humanity to survive as cooperative intelligent social animals. This communal behavior is exercised via many forms of governance including dictatorships, theocracies, democracies, monarchies, oligarchies or plutocracies etc.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostBut is not subjective to him, it is him. He is the good. You don't talk about any of God's other essential attributes as being subjective to him, do you? It seems to me that it's just unnecessary language that adds a layer of confusion when you talk about moral goodness being subjective to God even if you do so while maintaining that the goodness is grounded in his nature.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by JimL View PostRight, so how are you defining "Good" when using it to characterize an attribute of god?
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