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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Atheism And Moral Progress

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  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

    Of course, there is no aim, or decision-making process in Evolution – this would suggest, without any evidence, that a ‘mind’ is at work guiding it all. But you are anthropomorphizing without ANY justification a perfectly natural process.

    Evolution by natural selection is one of the best substantiated theories in the history of science. We know how it works, namely species that are best adapted to the natural environment are the ones that will survive. And if the natural environment changes they will either adapt via natural mutations or go extinct – as 99% of life on Earth has. IF, as you seem to believe, that 'god did it' he wasn't any good at it.



    You are correct but thank the gods that 'Mind' empowered all to be in the first place:+}

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    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

      No doubt the Christian colonists who slaughtered the indigenous inhabitants of America or Australia and took their lands and destroyed their cultures did not believe that their acts were immoral at the time. They even justified such atrocities with quotes from scripture. But such behavior is recognized now as immoral behavior. And this is because moral values evolve and vary from culture to culture over time.
      Actually there probably were some who believed their acts were immoral. From what I remember such remorse was part of the US soldier experience in some of the unnecessary and brutal extermination of Plains Indians.
      However, as you said, some felt no remorse and justified their action (look at the Crusades) for God or blessed by scripture

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      • Originally posted by seer View Post

        You keep asserting that without evidence. Saying "survival of the fittest" has no meaning. Did some thing design this system of survival? Or did it come about by accident?




        It didn't come from anywhere? Magic? And what created that process besides accidental happenstance?
        It could be argued that particular actions or entire processes like evolution did not come from 'anywhere' if one means God, however it is still possible (and valid) to assert that God is the very possibility that anything at all is and is sustained in existence. One can assert this and not accept that God 'is in the details.' or 'intervenes' miraculously in the natural world.

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        • Originally posted by seer View Post
          Like I said, some species get lucky and most don't.
          That's true in the same sense that the winner of an athletic contest is just lucky. Maybe he had better genes, or parents that pushed him harder, etc., but these things are all a matter of luck.

          Usually, when we talk about why some species didn't survive, we're interested in more direct causes, like some other species outcompeting it, or the environment changing faster than it could adapt, etc.

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          • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

            That's true in the same sense that the winner of an athletic contest is just lucky. Maybe he had better genes, or parents that pushed him harder, etc., but these things are all a matter of luck.
            Better genes would be luck, the rest would depend on decision making - intention, not luck.

            Usually, when we talk about why some species didn't survive, we're interested in more direct causes, like some other species outcompeting it, or the environment changing faster than it could adapt, etc.
            True...

            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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            • Originally posted by seer View Post
              Better genes would be luck, the rest would depend on decision making - intention, not luck.
              And the ability to make better decisions depends on luck.

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              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                \You keep asserting that without evidence. Saying "survival of the fittest" has no meaning. Did some thing design this system of survival? Or did it come about by accident?

                It didn't come from anywhere? Magic? And what created that process besides accidental happenstance?
                It's a consequence of the fact that there are limited resources. Somebody has to die; by definition, it tends to be the less fit.
                America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.

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                • Originally posted by seer View Post

                  And why is our moral view "now" correct and their past view "wrong?" Based on what?
                  Throughout human history community moral values have evolved and varied from culture to culture over time. The current community values in the developed world no longer encompass the disenfranchisement of entire categories of people – whether black, LGBT, women, Muslims, Jews, Christians or Native Americans.

                  Originally posted by seer View Post

                  Like I said, some species get lucky and most don't.
                  It's not a question of "luck". It's merely Natural Selection doing what Natural Selection does,



                  Last edited by Tassman; 10-03-2020, 02:08 AM.
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by thormas View Post

                    Actually there probably were some who believed their acts were immoral. From what I remember such remorse was part of the US soldier experience in some of the unnecessary and brutal extermination of Plains Indians.
                    However, as you said, some felt no remorse and justified their action (look at the Crusades) for God or blessed by scripture
                    Oh yes. There are almost always some individuals who resist the discriminatory (sometimes brutal) actions of the majority. And these are the individuals who collectively, over time bring about reform - e.g. the abolitionists and the suffragettes etc. ,


                    Last edited by Tassman; 10-03-2020, 02:09 AM.
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                      Throughout human history community moral values have evolved and varied from culture to culture over time. The current community values in the developed world no longer encompass the disenfranchisement of entire categories of people – whether black, LGBT, women, Muslims, Jews, Christians or Native Americans.
                      But why is the present moral view more correct than past views? And these current community values are not held world wide, not in Communist or Muslim countries. What makes the West right and them wrong?


                      It's not a question of "luck". It's merely Natural Selection doing what Natural Selection does.
                      Of course it is luck, there is no aim or goal to any of it. Nature did not decide to set up a system of natural selection, that system too came about by luck.

                      Luck: success or failure apparently brought by chance.

                      “In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.”




                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                        Oh yes. There are almost always some individuals who resist the discriminatory (sometimes brutal) actions of the majority. And these are the individuals who collectively, over time bring about reform - e.g. the abolitionists and the suffragettes etc. ,

                        Nicely stated.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post

                          But why is the present moral view more correct than past views? And these current community values are not held world wide, not in Communist or Muslim countries. What makes the West right and them wrong?
                          Perhaps the present moral value is 'more correct' simply because many see more clearly. We have moved (or are moving) from tribalism, superstition and racism (to name just a few beliefs that diminish life) to greater freedom - if we remain attentive, to actually be 'Christ' in and to our world.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by thormas View Post

                            Perhaps the present moral value is 'more correct' simply because many see more clearly. We have moved (or are moving) from tribalism, superstition and racism (to name just a few beliefs that diminish life) to greater freedom - if we remain attentive, to actually be 'Christ' in and to our world.
                            If there are not universal moral truths then no moral view is more correct or valid than its opposite.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post

                              If there are not universal moral truths then no moral view is more correct or valid than its opposite.
                              Never said there weren't...........simply that homosexuality as a great evil is not one :+}

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by thormas View Post

                                Never said there weren't...........simply that homosexuality as a great evil is not one :+}
                                I guess neither is incest...
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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