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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Atheism And Moral Progress

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  • You asked a question not previously seen, so I'll respond.

    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Sorry Carp when someone says talking to me is like hitting your head against the wall (me being the wall) I see that as slam, not a compliment.
    That you are not feeling complimented is obvious. That I intended a slam is your (incorrect) assumption. And your choice to put yourself in the analogy as "the wall" is also incorrect. "Pounding your head against the wall" is simply an expression conveying an action that is a) likely to cause you pain, and b) not likely to produce results. It was intended in only that way. How you took it I leave to you.

    Originally posted by seer View Post
    I mean why even write that post in the first place? To warn Jim? No, he knows me. Or to catalog my faults as you perceive them?
    I wrote the post partly as an extension of my discussion with JimB, to outline how I see morality playing out in the case of the typical conservative Christian, a group you have claimed membership to. Although I was using you as an example, I was actually thinking of the general conservative Christian community and the same post would apply to pretty much anyone in that community. It was a revelation to me, some months ago, that I was not paying attention to the underlying valuing/cherishing in my discussions with people here about specific moral principles. The result was I was engaging in moral debates/discussions that were doomed to fail before they even started. The discussion that was unfolding with JimL was of the same type, and I sought to convey that experience to him and anyone else chatting here. I continue to find it odd that a description of your moral approach that you deem accurate is somehow perceived as a "slam." Perhaps that says more about your moral approach and/or you than it does about my post?

    Just a thought. Again - I'll leave it to you unless you ask a further question not previously answered. As I noted before, I'm done going in circles with you, only to have most of the arguments ignored as you repeat the same questions over and over again. I don't find that to be productive discussion/debate. It's more like trolling, if I'm going to be honest about it

    (yes, that last sentence was a bit of a slam. I have come to see your engagements with many nonchristians as more like trolling than honest, inquisitive, discussion/debate)
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 09-04-2019, 04:37 PM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      That you are not feeling complimented is obvious. That I intended a slam is your (incorrect) assumption. And your choice to put yourself in the analogy as "the wall" is also incorrect. "Pounding your head against the wall" is simply an expression conveying an action that is a) likely to cause you pain, and b) not likely to produce results. It was intended in only that way. How you took it I leave to you.
      Yep, that is exactly the way I took it.



      I wrote the post partly as an extension of my discussion with JimB, to outline how I see morality playing out in the case of the typical conservative Christian, a group you have claimed membership to. Although I was using you as an example, I was actually thinking of the general conservative Christian community and the same post would apply to pretty much anyone in that community. It was a revelation to me, some months ago, that I was not paying attention to the underlying valuing/cherishing in my discussions with people here about specific moral principles. The result was I was engaging in moral debates/discussions that were doomed to fail before they even started. The discussion that was unfolding with JimL was of the same type, and I sought to convey that experience to him and anyone else chatting here. I continue to find it odd that a description of your moral approach that you deem accurate is somehow perceived as a "slam." Perhaps that says more about your moral approach and/or you than it does about my post?
      But you said nothing about Jim B. And it was not a problem so much with my beliefs as the way you couch it and that not so subtle sense of superiority when it comes to your ethical beliefs when that superiority is not justified on any level.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Post deleted as pointless
        Last edited by carpedm9587; 09-04-2019, 06:15 PM.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          Post deleted as pointless
          Of course Carp, arguing with you is like hitting my head against the wall.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            Of course Carp, arguing with you is like hitting my head against the wall.
            That must be very frustrating for you...

            Here's my suggestion: engage in discovery/exploration more, and trolling less. You'll probably get more out of it.

            Seriously, Seer. If you were more interested in understanding and less interested in ridiculing, you might find the exchanges a bit less frustrating.


            ETA: Cue the "rubber/glue" response...
            Last edited by carpedm9587; 09-04-2019, 06:46 PM.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              That must be very frustrating for you...

              Here's my suggestion: engage in discovery/exploration more, and trolling less. You'll probably get more out of it.

              Seriously, Seer. If you were more interested in understanding and less interested in ridiculing, you might find the exchanges a bit less frustrating.


              ETA: Cue the "rubber/glue" response...
              See Carp, sometimes I wonder if you are delusional or just arrogant when you say things like this:

              Without the openness to examine our moral positions and re-evaluate them in the light of new information, new understandings, and rational arguments, then the individual has trapped themselves into holding the positions they currently hold permanently. Since none of us is perfect, it follows that all of us hold moral positions that are flawed in some respect. The closed-mind person has committed to holding those flawed positions until death. I would consider that a moral shortcoming.
              Of course I'm closed minded, but when it comes to moral questions that is neither good or bad since in your relative would, and I do mean relative as in moral relativism, there is no moral progress, no objective moral goals, only moral change. Even calling a moral position flawed from your worldview or a short coming seems like the height of hubris. What on earth could you possibly mean?
              Last edited by seer; 09-04-2019, 07:15 PM.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                So when you say that my mind can't be changed, do you see that as a moral virtue or moral shortcoming? Be honest.
                If your mind can not be changed, if it is permanently fixed of beliefs, in other words if you are closed minded, then it is a shortcoming. Not saying that's the case, but your objective moral standard argument is wanting, without evidence, yet your mind seems to be closed to the alternative due simply to your desire that morals be objective realities to whom it's adherance gain eternal life. Your's is a wished for conclusion, not an evidential case for your premise.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  I asked you simple question back then that you refused to answer, which is a good exercise for the question of universal moral truths:

                  If an advanced Alien race came to earth and began harvesting us for food, would that be a moral wrong? A universal moral wrong? And why?
                  No more "morally wrong" than the "advanced race" of Homo Sapiens harvesting conscious animals, such as cows and pigs, for food. To a highly advanced alien race we may be no more to them than beef cattle and pigs are to us. Furthermore, if this this alien race is sufficiently primitive to have gods, they may be authorized by their deity to have “dominion over” over the life forms of inferior species such as us and eat us.
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Well Tass, nothing is proven. For instance, we have finely tuned, intelligible, life permitting universe where life actually shows up.
                    Actually, what we have is a universe that is incredibly hostile to life, except for on a tiny speck (i.e. Earth) orbiting a medium-sized sun on the outskirts of our galaxy…which just one of billions of galaxies each containing billions of suns and billions of planets. And this tiny speck is NOT finely tuned to permit life, life evolved to survive on it. In short life evolved to fit the universe, the universe was not designed to fit us.

                    And we have two choices - either an intelligence created it or non-rational forces did.
                    There is just one viable choice. There is no good reason to attribute the universe’s existence to an imaginary, immaterial, thinking deity.

                    Why choosing the non-rational forces is beyond me.
                    The natural laws and constants of the universe are the only evidence we have of how it functions. The ancients devised legends and myths to explain it all but none of them have withstood scientific scrutiny. Including your mythology.

                    And you still have not told us what sufficient evidence for God would look like.
                    You are the one that believes that nonsense, so it’s up to you to justify your belief, not me.
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      See Carp, sometimes I wonder if you are delusional or just arrogant when you say things like this:



                      Of course I'm closed minded, but when it comes to moral questions that is neither good or bad since in your relative would, and I do mean relative as in moral relativism, there is no moral progress, no objective moral goals, only moral change. Even calling a moral position flawed from your worldview or a short coming seems like the height of hubris. What on earth could you possibly mean?
                      See my responses to Jim B.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        If your mind can not be changed, if it is permanently fixed of beliefs, in other words if you are closed minded, then it is a shortcoming. Not saying that's the case, but your objective moral standard argument is wanting, without evidence, yet your mind seems to be closed to the alternative due simply to your desire that morals be objective realities to whom it's adherance gain eternal life. Your's is a wished for conclusion, not an evidential case for your premise.
                        What alternatives are you speaking of Jim? I believe in universal moral truths, I believe we live in a just universe where good will one day will prevail. So what are you offering? Moral relativism in an unjust and amoral universe - a hopeless existence where everlasting death is our lot? And what exactly do you mean by evidence?
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                          Actually, what we have is a universe that is incredibly hostile to life, except for on a tiny speck (i.e. Earth) orbiting a medium-sized sun on the outskirts of our galaxy…which just one of billions of galaxies each containing billions of suns and billions of planets. And this tiny speck is NOT finely tuned to permit life, life evolved to survive on it. In short life evolved to fit the universe, the universe was not designed to fit us.
                          Of course this universe is finally tune for the possibility of life, never mind order.



                          There is just one viable choice. There is no good reason to attribute the universe’s existence to an imaginary, immaterial, thinking deity.
                          Then prove that this universe could or was created by non-rational forces of nature

                          The natural laws and constants of the universe are the only evidence we have of how it functions. The ancients devised legends and myths to explain it all but none of them have withstood scientific scrutiny. Including your mythology.
                          You are begging the question Tass, why do we have the finely tuned natural laws and constants? Dumb luck?


                          You are the one that believes that nonsense, so it’s up to you to justify your belief, not me.
                          And I think it is just as nonsensical to believe that non-rational forces created such a universe:

                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            See my responses to Jim B.
                            They have nothing to do with with I just said Carp, man up and deal with it. I'm tired of your ethical musing when you don't have a rational leg to stand on, yet you pretend that you do. Then claim a superiority for your position that is completely unwarranted. Being closed minded or open minded, morally, are complete non sequiturs in a morally relative world. Moral progress is only that which you happen to agree with, a moral flaw is that which you happen disagree with. Why you think you have a logical standing to criticize any moral position is beyond me. Rant over...
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              What alternatives are you speaking of Jim? I believe in universal moral truths, I believe we live in a just universe where good will one day will prevail. So what are you offering? Moral relativism in an unjust and amoral universe - a hopeless existence where everlasting death is our lot? And what exactly do you mean by evidence?
                              Yes, an amoral mindless universe, where all emergent forms pass away, their substance changing to other forms until the universe itself dies. It's not about an offer, it's about facing reality! What I mean by evidence is that you have none, other than your belief in objective existing moral laws.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                Yes, an amoral mindless universe, where all emergent forms pass away, their substance changing to other forms until the universe itself dies. It's not about an offer, it's about facing reality! What I mean by evidence is that you have none, other than your belief in objective existing moral laws.
                                First you don't know that is reality, you can not demonstrate that God doesn't, even if I can't show that he does. And again what would evidence for God look like? I have asked Tass this a number of times - no answer. So I ask you...
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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