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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Atheism And Moral Progress

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  • #91
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Who decides what the good of society is Jim? The Communists? The Muslims? The Anarchists? The Republicans? The Socialists? It all comes back to opinion...
    Nobody decides what is best seer, it is either in our best interests or it is not. We only have opinions, and come to conclusions based on experience and reason, but, with regard to what is best for society as a whole, there is always a "best good" regardless of whether we recognise it as the better of 2 options or not. Would you say that there is actually a best system of governance regardless of the numerous types tried? I think you would.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by JimL View Post
      Nobody decides what is best seer, it is either in our best interests or it is not. We only have opinions, and come to conclusions based on experience and reason, but, with regard to what is best for society as a whole, there is always a "best good" regardless of whether we recognise it as the better of 2 options or not. Would you say that there is actually a best system of governance regardless of the numerous types tried? I think you would.
      So there is some objective standard of "best" and "good" out there that doesn't depend on whether anyone recognizes it or not?

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by JimL View Post
        Nobody decides what is best seer, it is either in our best interests or it is not. We only have opinions, and come to conclusions based on experience and reason, but, with regard to what is best for society as a whole, there is always a "best good" regardless of whether we recognise it as the better of 2 options or not. Would you say that there is actually a best system of governance regardless of the numerous types tried? I think you would.
        Jim, you are not making sense. And yes, I do believe there is a better system - that which follows New Testament moral principles. I'm glad we agree!
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          So there is some objective standard of "best" and "good" out there that doesn't depend on whether anyone recognizes it or not?
          Sure, but it need have nothing to do with God, or devine law. There are simply human behaviors which better serve the interests of human society as a whole and so individuals in general. Not stealing needn't be a devine law in order that it be "objectively" in the "best interests" of human beings living together in community to not steal from each other.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by JimL View Post
            Sure, but it need have nothing to do with God, or devine law. There are simply human behaviors which better serve the interests of human society as a whole and so individuals in general. Not stealing needn't be a devine law in order that it be "objectively" in the "best interests" of human beings living together in community to not steal from each other.
            No, Jim. If it is independent of what anyone thinks of as "best" and "good" then it can't be "simply human behaviors which better serve the interests of human society as a whole and so individuals in general" - because that requires someone to decide what it better for society, and you said it doesn't matter what anyone thinks.

            Therefore the objective standard of "good" exists independent of people or of society itself. You just argued for God.

            Thanks for playing.

            When is your baptism?

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            • #96
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              When is your baptism?
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                Hey why argue with JimL about morality when you can let him argue against himself? And lose!

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  No Tass I am not missing the point, show me from scripture where interracial marriage is prohibited. You know that is not the case.
                  Interracial marriage was prohibited in scripture according to the Dutch Reform Church in South Africa, hence apartheid. Slavery was acceptable, according to the Southern Baptist Convention, resulting in the formation of the largest Protestant Church in the US.

                  Christian biblical morality has historically been interpreted according to the moral values of the day. And, today homosexuality is widely acceptable; the biblical passages concerning it have been and are being re-evaluated by the majority of Christians.

                  I already explained this Tass. Christians are not commanded to execute any man. We are not Jews living under the Mosaic legal code. Christ will judge all evil doers at His return.
                  The good people of Salem didn’t see it that way, nor did the Inquisitions. They happily obeyed the unambiguous commands of God to execute witches...and many others.

                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  You really are slow...
                  CS Lewis was equivocating over the existence of witches. God had no such equivocation...they existed and he wanted them dead. Who are you to argue with God?
                  Last edited by Tassman; 08-03-2018, 11:02 PM.
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                    Interracial marriage was prohibited in scripture according to the Dutch Reform Church in South Africa, hence apartheid. Slavery was acceptable, according to the Southern Baptist Convention, resulting in the formation of the largest Protestant Church in the US.
                    Tass, I don't care what a particular denomination may or may not have taught, I want to know where in Scripture interracial marriage is prohibited. You can not find that in Scripture and you know it.

                    Christian biblical morality has historically been interpreted according to the moral values of the day. And, today homosexuality is widely acceptable; the biblical passages concerning it have been and are being re-evaluated by the majority of Christians.
                    That is false Tass, what do you mean the majority of Christians? You polled all Christians world wide? And those texts are not being re-evaluated - they are being ignored, as I have demonstrated time and time again. I also showed that the majority of Christians who study scripture more often do believe that homosexuality is sin. So yes the Biblically illiterate tend to not believe that homosexuality is immoral.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      No, Jim. If it is independent of what anyone thinks of as "best" and "good" then it can't be "simply human behaviors which better serve the interests of human society as a whole and so individuals in general" - because that requires someone to decide what it better for society, and you said it doesn't matter what anyone thinks.

                      Therefore the objective standard of "good" exists independent of people or of society itself. You just argued for God.

                      Thanks for playing.

                      When is your baptism?
                      No the objective standard or attributes of morality are the 'best' morals that assures human survival.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        No the objective standard or attributes of morality are the 'best' morals that assures human survival.
                        So abortion is immoral then?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          So abortion is immoral then?
                          You are going beyond the degree of morality required for the survival of the species. Abortion ahas been around for the known history of civilizations and it has had no impact on the survival of the human species.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Tass, I don't care what a particular denomination may or may not have taught, I want to know where in Scripture interracial marriage is prohibited. You can not find that in Scripture and you know it.
                            The undeniable fact is that Christian morality has been based upon the moral values of the day; historically the bible has been made to support those values via the interpretation of scripture. This was true of anti-miscegenation laws and it was true of slavery and much else. And it is true of homosexuality.

                            Paul is taken literally by those opposed to homosexuality (Jesus never mentions it) and interpreted according to perceived historical context by those who support it...as is becoming more common in the free world.
                            Last edited by Tassman; 08-05-2018, 12:13 AM.
                            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              No, Jim. If it is independent of what anyone thinks of as "best" and "good" then it can't be "simply human behaviors which better serve the interests of human society as a whole and so individuals in general" - because that requires someone to decide what it better for society, and you said it doesn't matter what anyone thinks.

                              Therefore the objective standard of "good" exists independent of people or of society itself. You just argued for God.

                              Thanks for playing.

                              When is your baptism?
                              I will assume that you would agree with me that the moral against stealing is in the best interests of society, and so in the best interests of the members thereof in general, Sparko. Yes or no? If you agree, then tell me what it is that makes it so? Why is the moral against theft in the best interests of society as a whole, and of you in particular. Opinions can be independent of what behaviors are, or are not, in the best interests of ourselves as a society, but they are not determining factors. The determining factors of what is right and wrong, good or bad, in our best or worst interests as individuals of community, are proper logic and reasoning, not objective decrees.

                              Thanks for playing.

                              When do you discard your fairy tales.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                                Jim, you are not making sense.
                                That's not much of a refuting argument there, seer.


                                And yes, I do believe there is a better system - that which follows New Testament moral principles. I'm glad we agree!
                                And in what way would this form of governance be in our best interests as both a society and as individual members thereof?

                                Comment

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